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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Controlling costs by gov't mandate is INSANE.
    Except it works just fine for every other developed nation.

    Apply that concept to food; we now have a variety of restaurants from places offering filet mignon, with all the trimmings, served on fine china, while seated at linen covered tables to drive-through joints offering tacos in a paper bag. If you start controlling prices, what you end up with is less and less choice until ALL restaurants offer only tacos, as more and more are forced to close.
    Well, we don't need to apply it to food.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You duck the POINT. Why is "single payer" good for ONLY medical care? You fail to see that the SAME argument can be made for any "need", that it can either be attained by trading a prtion of YOUR wages for it, or supplied to ALL by taxation and the gov't doling it out. This is no more, or less, true for food, sheter and clothing, than for medical care. You dance all around the issue; we all have as much "ACCESS" to the doctor as we do for the grocery store, it is just that BOTH expect to be paid for their goods and services upon check-out.

    The idea that since medical care is important, it somehow should be made into a "common right", instead of remaining an individual responsibility, applies equally to food, shelter and clothing. You either believe that one should work and provide for themselves (and their dependents) or that ALL "needs" should be guaranteed by the gov't, and that work is a mere option, needed only to secure luxuries, beyond that "needed" for simply sustaining life, which are "guaranteed" to all, just for existing in the USA.
    The issue is that except for the really poor, food, shelter and clothing are affordable to most Americans. There are programs to help the poor with food, shelter and clothing, although more could be done. But the cost for these things are not prohibitive and they are constant, recurring, affordable costs.

    In the case of healthcare it is completely different. Your average doctor visit is affordable, but hospitalization, surgery, advanced tests, and the latest drugs are not affordable, even to a middle class family, much less a poor one. There are regular doctor visits but there is also the unexpected visit and the costly consequences if a problem is found. So, we have a basic need, healthcare, whose cost is prohibitive and unpredictable. Unlike those other needs, the solution to healthcare to deal with these qualities of prohibitive cost and unpredictable occurrence, is to treat it as insurance. Unfortunately, this insurance is tied to employment and if you are not poor, you have to pay a huge amount for COBRA. Plus the administration of all this is Byzantine.

    Solution to healthcare, and not food, shelter and clothing? Make it single payer, universal.

    The reason why this does not apply to auto, renters or life insurance is that those are not needs.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    First of all, there is no "Tea Party leadership" or "Occupy Wall Street leadership" outside of the Republican and Democratic Party. There is absolutely zero chance you're going to get a herd of right-wing conservatives to agree to universal health care. And even if you did, they would turn on it the instant it was introduced as legislation, as they did with the Affordable Care Act. The individual mandate had 20 years of conservative intellectual groundwork, but that didn't stop them from abandoning it the minute a guy with a (D) after his name signed on to it. So what makes you think that a vastly more liberal policy which has never had any conservative support would enjoy a better fate?

    If you want to get to universal health care, you take big steps when you can (i.e. the Affordable Care Act), and you take smaller steps when you can't (i.e. incrementally raising Medicaid eligibility).
    I know for a fact that there is Tea Party leadership not attached to a particular politician. There is also serious Occupy Wall Street folks trying to be involved in the government discussions on regulation of financial markets. Bring then together for a weekend. Immediately table disagreements and focus on common ground.

    Healthcare is only one issue, and if it got tabled while other principles and policies were agreed to, I would take that in a DC power outage.
    Last edited by reefedjib; 07-01-12 at 06:22 PM.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Except it works just fine for every other developed nation.



    Well, we don't need to apply it to food.
    Then buy "the poor" a first class ticket to Morroco if they are sick. ;-)
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    The issue is that except for the really poor, food, shelter and clothing are affordable to most Americans. There are programs to help the poor with food, shelter and clothing, although more could be done. But the cost for these things are not prohibitive and they are constant, recurring, affordable costs.

    In the case of healthcare it is completely different. Your average doctor visit is affordable, but hospitalization, surgery, advanced tests, and the latest drugs are not affordable, even to a middle class family, much less a poor one. There are regular doctor visits but there is also the unexpected visit and the costly consequences if a problem is found. So, we have a basic need, healthcare, whose cost is prohibitive and unpredictable. Unlike those other needs, the solution to healthcare to deal with these qualities of prohibitive cost and unpredictable occurrence, is to treat it as insurance. Unfortunately, this insurance is tied to employment and if you are not poor, you have to pay a huge amount for COBRA. Plus the administration of all this is Byzantine.

    Solution to healthcare, and not food, shelter and clothing? Make it single payer, universal.

    The reason why this does not apply to auto, renters or life insurance is that those are not needs.
    OK, then let's END SNAP, DOEd and welfare (in all of its many forms), and place that "savings" into medicaid and expand that coverage. There is NO extra in the federal "budget" as we now spend 40% more than we dare ask for in direct taxation. It is time to set PRIORITIES not simply add ever more "nice" things that the gov't can think of. We must FIRST have our gov't learn to live within its means, only THEN talk of adding things. ;-)
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 07-01-12 at 06:29 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    You don't think corporations use the commerce clause to raise the barriers of entry into an industry, to limit the players?
    Sure, that happens sometimes. Like I say 1 out of 100 uses of the commerce clause is pro-corporate. But the extent to which it happens is wildly exaggerated. For example, you hear a lot of talk about small businesses being driven out of business by overwhelming regulatory burdens. I worked at a three person start up as it grew into a 75 person company. The only regulatory burden we really had was paying taxes once a year. The first year, the CEO did the taxes himself. The next two years he hired an accountant to work on it for a couple days. Then once it got bigger, the CFO did them himself. That was it. It's hype. In fact, most regulations don't even affect small businesses at all. For example, most employment regulations don't kick in until a business has 50 or 200 employees. Financial reporting requirements don't kick in until a company is publicly traded on a major exchange with over 2,000 shareholders of record (which usually means at least 50,000 actual shareholders, since most investors, their brokerage is the "shareholder of record". So, you could have only one shareholder of record- etrade, but have a million shareholders).

    What the barrier to entry argument is is just spin from big businesses that want to push their externalities on to the general public freely.

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    That is the difference between corporate interests and propaganda. Who do you think makes money on the drug war, especially with the artificial retail price of drugs?
    • Cartels?
    • Police?
    • Federal Law Enforcement?
    • Arms manufacturers?
    • Communications and military/survillance industries?
    • Banks and financial institutions?
    • Real Estate?
    • Politicians?


    What the hell do they do with all the money that flows through the artificial black market?
    What authoritarian governments with offensive federal police powers are supported by Drug War aid?
    I mean, I'm sure some manufacturers and whatnot lobby in favor of the war on drugs. But I don't buy that that is the main motivation behind it. Seems more driven by the politics to me. Again, I'm strongly anti-war-on-drugs. And I'm for legalization at least of non-physically-addictive drugs. But, I think it's a bit of a stretch to blame the war on drugs on the corporations. There was, and to a lesser extent, there still is, an enormous amount of public hysteria about it. It is very similar to the immigration hysteria today IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    All because of propaganda and misuse of the commerce clause?
    No that is not accurate at all. The commerce clause has played a fairly minor role in the war on drugs. The war in general is conducted by states, who don't need any constitutional justification. For federal law enforcement, actual interstate, or international drug trafficking the federal government would have authority over regardless of the commerce clause. The only place they really need it is in the scenario you referenced- somebody who is growing their own drugs for consumption within the same state. So, trying to pin the war on drugs on the commerce clause isn't very reasonable IMO.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    This is my fundamental point. The two groups dissatisfied with the country are the Tea Party and the Occupy Wall Street folks. It must be made clear to both groups that they share the same fundamental principle: government is beholden to corporate interests.
    I agree there are some similarities- they both want corporations to have less control over government. But they differ radically on the other side of the equation. OWS wants government to force corporations into line. The Tea Party wants government to let corporations off the leash to do whatever they want to us.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    They didnt make that concession to the GOP, they made it to fellow democrats. The GOP played no role, ZERO, in the crafting of the legislation that came out of the House. The concessions made were made to get 218 democratic votes.
    No lol. That isn't how politics works. The right went bezerk over it. That has a huge impact. Democrats in swing states couldn't take the heat and they caved. That's what all those tea parties were about- trying to force democrats in swing states to cave.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  9. #719
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I know for a fact that there is Tea Party leadership not attached to a particular politician.
    It doesn't matter. Virtually all of them are driven by the same tribal mentality that drives their fierce opposition to the Affordable Care Act, despite the fact that there was almost no opposition (let alone outrage) to these kind of ideas among conservatives prior to 2009.

    There is also serious Occupy Wall Street folks trying to be involved in the government discussions on regulation of financial markets. Bring then together for a weekend. Immediately table disagreements and focus on common ground.
    Health care would most certainly not be common ground. In fact it's possibly the single most intractable issue between them.

    Healthcare is only one issue, and if it got tabled while other principles and policies were agreed to, I would take that in a DC power outage.
    Then I think you're in the wrong thread.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Then buy "the poor" a first class ticket to Morroco if they are sick. ;-)
    Other nations, understandably, aren't particularly fond of paying for health care for the citizens of deadbeat nations like ours. It's why I had to buy international health insurance policies when I was in college, whenever I traveled abroad (even to nations with universal health care).
    Are you coming to bed?
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