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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    My ultimate goal is to have everyone covered under a federal plan which would provide, at the very least, catastrophic coverage and free preventative care.
    Catastrophic is anything life-threatening or permanently disabling right? And preventive is pretty much everything else. Unless you'd care to specify what is altogether excluded from these two categories, I think we have to assume it's all-inclusive.

    And they'd pay premiums for this insurance, if they could afford it. Otherwise they'd get subsidies to pay for it, which would be paid for out of the general tax revenue.
    This is all going in the same direction, which is what I articulated. Over time, fewer and fewer people are responsible for more and more of the funding responsibility, leaving people poorer, more desperate/helpless and more reliant on the contributions of others to meet their needs. Meanwhile, nothing is implemented to suppress the actual cost of medical care.

    People aren't going to care any more or less just because they're on a government plan. What's important, as far as getting people to care about the costs, is the deductible. And I would support higher deductibles for government plans (although I'd waive them for people who couldn't afford them).
    You make people pay pricier and pricier premiums, as well as larger deductibles, until they can't afford it and then you waive the requirement. This is exactly as I described in my previous post. "Make them poor enough to need us."

    Is there any conceivable scenario in which a person would be denied care? Of any kind? If not, this sounds like universal care, which we already have by virtue of our promise to treat anyone who shows up, and the glaring problem with universally guaranteed care is that it inherently fails to control for the rising cost of medical care, and heaps the burden onto an ever smaller group of people.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 07-01-12 at 05:50 PM.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Well obviously removing the public option is the hugest concession to the GOP and the corporations. Oddly, the mandate was another one. But also things like raising the caps on price increases.
    They didnt make that concession to the GOP, they made it to fellow democrats. The GOP played no role, ZERO, in the crafting of the legislation that came out of the House. The concessions made were made to get 218 democratic votes.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I find it's better to see the world as it actually is, rather than as one might want it to be. This is especially important when forming political policy. And ranting about the "****ing political system" doesn't change the fact that it does, in fact, exist, and the only way to get to universal health care is to work through it.
    But is it not clear that both the Dems and the GOP work together to create political tension and opposition, so the system stays in power, and no third way is possible? In Virginia, it is illegal to have a third political party. Same sort of deal in other states. Campaigns are financed by corporations. The political establishment generates controversy and opposition between the two entrenched parties.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Why do you keep bringing up AUTO insurance? All that is required is liability insurance...minus the medical side, because Medicare for all will solve the medical problem, all that is left is property damage insurance, Since cars/trucks are optional, if you don't have a vehicle you have no need for liability insurance. Medical coverage, on the other hand, is inescapable. We each have our bodies and our health to deal with.
    You duck the POINT. Why is "single payer" good for ONLY medical care? You fail to see that the SAME argument can be made for any "need", that it can either be attained by trading a prtion of YOUR wages for it, or supplied to ALL by taxation and the gov't doling it out. This is no more, or less, true for food, sheter and clothing, than for medical care. You dance all around the issue; we all have as much "ACCESS" to the doctor as we do for the grocery store, it is just that BOTH expect to be paid for their goods and services upon check-out.

    The idea that since medical care is important, it somehow should be made into a "common right", instead of remaining an individual responsibility, applies equally to food, shelter and clothing. You either believe that one should work and provide for themselves (and their dependents) or that ALL "needs" should be guaranteed by the gov't, and that work is a mere option, needed only to secure luxuries, beyond that "needed" for simply sustaining life, which are "guaranteed" to all, just for existing in the USA.

    We now have MANY gov't programs to "give away" things, but is that REALLY a good thing? In our "war on poverty" we have NOT eliminated poverty, we still have a steady 12% to 15% of the U.S. population defined as "poor people", they simply happen to be supported BY THE GOV'T (we the WORKING sheeple) at a standard of living well above 75% of the world, yet ever more is STILL demanded of the 52% that must pay income taxes.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 07-01-12 at 05:56 PM.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Catastrophic is anything life-threatening or permanently disabling right? And preventive is pretty much everything else. Unless you'd care to specify what is altogether excluded from these two categories, I think we have to assume it's all-inclusive.
    Any medical expenses beyond a certain relatively high deductible (maybe $4,000)...plus a few annual checkups, cancer screenings, etc. Ideally, the patient's first $4,000 of care (excluding those preventative services) would be out-of-pocket if he/she could afford it.

    This is all going in the same direction, which is what I articulated. Over time, fewer and fewer people are responsible for more and more of the funding responsibility, leaving people poorer, more desperate/helpless and more reliant on the contributions of others to meet their needs.
    Not at all. Everyone who could afford it would be paying for their own premiums and out-of-pocket expenses under such a system.

    Meanwhile, nothing is implemented to suppress the actual cost of medical care.
    The Affordable Care Act established the IPAB to help control costs. Additionally, as the government covers more people, its bargaining power with health care providers will increase and it will be better able to keep costs down.

    Is there any conceivable scenario in which a person would be denied care? Of any kind? If not, this sounds like universal care,
    Correct, universal care.

    and the glaring problem with universally guaranteed care is that it inherently fails to control for the rising cost of medical care, and heaps the burden onto an ever smaller group of people.
    Every single country in the world with universal health care does a better job control the costs of medical care than the United States does.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-01-12 at 06:02 PM.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    But is it not clear that both the Dems and the GOP work together to create political tension and opposition, so the system stays in power, and no third way is possible? In Virginia, it is illegal to have a third political party. Same sort of deal in other states. Campaigns are financed by corporations. The political establishment generates controversy and opposition between the two entrenched parties.
    If that's the case, what makes you think that it's remotely realistic to scrap the Affordable Care Act and go straight to universal health care?
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Catastrophic is anything life-threatening or permanently disabling right? And preventive is pretty much everything else. Unless you'd care to specify what is altogether excluded from these two categories, I think we have to assume it's all-inclusive.



    This is all going in the same direction, which is what I articulated. Over time, fewer and fewer people are responsible for more and more of the funding responsibility, leaving people poorer, more desperate/helpless and more reliant on the contributions of others to meet their needs. Meanwhile, nothing is implemented to suppress the actual cost of medical care.



    You make people pay pricier and pricier premiums, as well as larger deductibles, until they can't afford it and then you waive the requirement. This is exactly as I described in my previous post. "Make them poor enough to need us."

    Is there any conceivable scenario in which a person would be denied care? Of any kind? If not, this sounds like universal care, which we already have by virtue of our promise to treat anyone who shows up, and the glaring problem with universally guaranteed care is that it inherently fails to control for the rising cost of medical care, and heaps the burden onto an ever smaller group of people.
    From each according to their ability (to pay taxes), to each according to their need (for free stuff).

    Yes they can!
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    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If that's the case, what makes you think that it's remotely realistic to scrap the Affordable Care Act and go straight to universal health care?
    Get the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street leadership together in a room and agree to basic principles and basic policies...UHC is one of them, and removing corporate interests from government is another. Balanced budget is a third one. Remove entitlements from teh federal budget and make them state level is a fourth. Ending drug prohibition is a fifth one. Financial regulation is a sixth one. Then talk to various candidates, or supply their own, and pull together a new political party, in the shadows, as some will be Dems and some will be GOP. Get representation in Congress and get the Presidency. Enact the agreed policies.
    Last edited by reefedjib; 07-01-12 at 06:10 PM.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Any medical expenses beyond a certain relatively high deductible (maybe $4,000)...plus a few annual checkups, cancer screenings, etc. Ideally, the patient's first $4,000 of care (excluding those preventative services) would be out-of-pocket if he/she could afford it.



    Not at all. Everyone who could afford it would be paying for their own premiums and out-of-pocket expenses.



    The Affordable Care Act established the IPAB to help control costs. Additionally, as the government covers more people, its bargaining power with health care providers will increase and it will be better able to keep costs down.



    Correct, universal care.



    Every single country in the world with universal health care does a better job control the costs of medical care than the United States does.
    Controlling costs by gov't mandate is INSANE. Apply that concept to food; we now have a variety of restaurants from places offering filet mignon, with all the trimmings, served on fine china, while seated at linen covered tables to drive-through joints offering tacos in a paper bag. If you start controlling prices, what you end up with is less and less choice until ALL restaurants offer only tacos, as more and more are forced to close.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 07-01-12 at 06:10 PM.
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    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Get the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street leadership together in a room and agree to basic principles and basic policies...UHC is one of them, and removing corporate interests from government is another. Balanced budget is a third one. Then talk to various candidates, or supply their own, and pull together a new political party, in the shadows, as some will be Dems and some will be GOP. Get representation in Congress and get the Presidency. Enact the agreed policies.
    First of all, there is no "Tea Party leadership" or "Occupy Wall Street leadership" outside of the Republican and Democratic Party. There is absolutely zero chance you're going to get a herd of right-wing conservatives to agree to universal health care. And even if you did, they would turn on it the instant it was introduced as legislation, as they did with the Affordable Care Act. The individual mandate had 20 years of conservative intellectual groundwork, but that didn't stop them from abandoning it the minute a guy with a (D) after his name signed on to it. So what makes you think that a vastly more liberal policy which has never had any conservative support would enjoy a better fate?

    If you want to get to universal health care, you take big steps when you can (i.e. the Affordable Care Act), and you take smaller steps when you can't (i.e. incrementally raising Medicaid eligibility).
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