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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I would be interested in hearing about the Tea Party opinion on UHC, especially with the rising unemployment rate and the prohibitive cost of COBRA.
    I wouldn't put too much stock in it. Even if some of them are nominally in support of it now, that would change immediately if the Democrats actually considered making it the law of the land. Which is exactly what happened with the Affordable Care Act.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    The bottom line is that Obamacare is not based on the rock of principle but the sand of political expediency. Let's scrap it and come up with UHC based on the rock of principle. The principles are that everyone should be covered and funded by the community at large and the medical industry should operate as private enterprise. Finally, preventative care is as important as catastrophic care.
    I don't disagree, but that's just the reality in a pluralistic society. Different people have different principles. You need to compromise. When you can find a solution that at least a majority of the country thinks makes at least some improvement according to their principles, you go for it. The dream of being able to just redesign our entire health care system based on one person's set of principles, and then everybody else will just go along with it, isn't a reality.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    There's no need to make people poor enough to qualify for Medicaid, since the Medicaid eligibility rules can be changed at any time by an act of Congress. I favor incrementally letting Medicaid apply to more people. For example, PPACA raises the income level which qualifies for Medicaid to 133% of the poverty line. Next we can raise it to 150%, then 200%, and so on. Same with Medicare...let's reduce the eligibility age from 65 to 63 to 60, and so on. Raise the age at which people can stay on their family's plan from 26 to 28 to 30, and so on. Incrementally covering more and more people, until eventually everyone is covered.
    Do you know who pays the Medicaid tab? Not the beneficiaries.

    So what you want to see happen is for fewer and fewer taxpayers to have greater and greater funding responsibility over the nation. This lack of responsibility over our own lives might sound liberating to people like you, but others realize that what suppresses the cost of something is the self-interested assessment of the person purchasing it as to whether or not it is a good deal.

    Stated another way, the more responsibility you take away from people over their health care, the less they will care what it costs, and thus the more it will cost.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I don't disagree, but that's just the reality in a pluralistic society. Different people have different principles. You need to compromise. When you can find a solution that at least a majority of the country thinks makes at least some improvement according to their principles, you go for it. The dream of being able to just redesign our entire health care system based on one person's set of principles, and then everybody else will just go along with it, isn't a reality.
    This is my fundamental point. The two groups dissatisfied with the country are the Tea Party and the Occupy Wall Street folks. It must be made clear to both groups that they share the same fundamental principle: government is beholden to corporate interests.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Why do it incrementally when you can do it at once with a stroke of the magic pen?
    Because it is not politically possible to pass universal health care with a stroke of the magic pen.

    It sucks for the guy at 134% of the poverty line...maybe he'll quit his job to get affordable health insurance...
    He will be eligible for a heavily-subsidized private insurance plan on the health insurance exchanges starting in 2014, when his annual premiums will be capped at 3% of his income.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    There's no need to make people poor enough to qualify for Medicaid, since the Medicaid eligibility rules can be changed at any time by an act of Congress. I favor incrementally letting Medicaid apply to more people. For example, PPACA raises the income level which qualifies for Medicaid to 133% of the poverty line. Next we can raise it to 150%, then 200%, and so on. Same with Medicare...let's reduce the eligibility age from 65 to 63 to 60, and so on. Raise the age at which people can stay on their family's plan from 26 to 28 to 30, and so on. Incrementally covering more and more people, until eventually everyone is covered.
    What a bunch of BS. That has NOTHING to do with medical reform at all. You just want an incremental UHC system, controlled by the gov't. PPACA is NOT about medical care reform but it IS about gov't control, until people SEE THAT, this debate is NOT about medical care reform at ALL, it is ONLY about income redistribution to pay for the CURRENT medical care with incremental "tweaks" as the IPAB restricts CARE options, one by one, to cut its costs.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Do you know who pays the Medicaid tab? Not the beneficiaries.

    So what you want to see happen is for fewer and fewer taxpayers to have greater and greater funding responsibility over the nation.
    My ultimate goal is to have everyone covered under a federal plan which would provide, at the very least, catastrophic coverage and free preventative care. And they'd pay premiums for this insurance, if they could afford it. Otherwise they'd get subsidies to pay for it, which would be paid for out of the general tax revenue.

    This lack of responsibility over our own lives might sound liberating to people like you, but others realize that what suppresses the cost of something is the self-interested assessment of the person purchasing it as to whether or not it is a good deal.

    Stated another way, the more responsibility you take away from people over their health care, the less they will care what it costs, and thus the more it will cost.
    People aren't going to care any more or less just because they're on a government plan. What's important, as far as getting people to care about the costs, is the deductible. And I would support higher deductibles for government plans (although I'd waive them for people who couldn't afford them).
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Because it is not politically possible to pass universal health care with a stroke of the magic pen.
    Why is it politically impossible? Because Jimmy-Joe and his friends stand over to the right and Starlight and her friends stadn on the left and both are sworn enemies of the other? The ****ing political system has all these imbeciles right where they want them...

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    What a bunch of BS. That has NOTHING to do with medical reform at all.
    That particular point has nothing to do with medical reform. Just because I support increasing coverage doesn't mean I don't *also* support other provisions, which you'd know by now if you had been paying attention.

    You just want an incremental UHC system, controlled by the gov't.
    Yep.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Why is it politically impossible? Because Jimmy-Joe and his friends stand over to the right and Starlight and her friends stadn on the left and both are sworn enemies of the other? The ****ing political system has all these imbeciles right where they want them...
    I find it's better to see the world as it actually is, rather than as one might want it to be. This is especially important when forming political policy. And ranting about the "****ing political system" doesn't change the fact that it does, in fact, exist, and the only way to get to universal health care is to work through it.
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