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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

  1. #61
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid were all enacted on a bipartisan basis. That ensured political peace. Obamacare wasn't enacted on a bipartisan basis. Instead, President Obama put Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid in charge of getting the legislation enacted. They are probably the two most partisan people on earth.
    They did indeed reach out to conservatives. They jettisoned the public option and adopted the individual mandate to get a compromise, precisely because Republicans like Chuck Grassley and Orrin Hatch were telling them that they could find a broad consensus around an individual mandate as late as the summer of 2009. So the Democrats tried it...and the entire Republican Party did an about-face, gave them the finger, burnt down 20 years of intellectual groundwork they themselves had laid for the individual mandate, pissed on the ashes, and salted the earth so nothing could ever grow their again.

    Under those circumstances, what possible bipartisan agreement do you imagine was possible? As far as I can tell, the GOP doesn't even *have* a health care platform anymore, because their previous platform is now the law of the land in the form of PPACA.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    The biggest problem with the US's health care system cost wise is that we don't get enough preventative care. It is way, way, cheaper to prevent loads of kinds of problems than to treat them after they arise. For example, many men between say 18 and 40 will only go to the doctor once every 5 or even 10 years when something goes wrong. That is a huge problem because they can develop all kinds of conditions and whatnot during that time and not realize it. High cholesterol, high blood pressure, that kind of stuff. Women on the other hand generally go once a year or more their whole lives and that is part of why women's lifespans are so much longer. In most first world countries they have much more of a focus on preventative care, which is why they often have longer lifespans and it is a big part of why they have so much lower medical costs overall. The goal with the minimums is largely to eliminate barriers to getting preventative care to try to get us back on course in that regard.
    I pay CASH now for my medical care and see a doctor every three months, am on blood thinners for life and see no reason to buy insurance to cover NORMAL medical care, at 58 I am in "average" shape dispite having had major past medical problems. I get discounts of well over 60% because I pay cash at the time of my medical treatment, they don't even have to mail a bill to me. I buy my medications 90 days at a time, saving 66% (over the 30 day supply amount) AND get a cash discount for that as well.

    Much of our medical care cost inflation is BECAUSE of insurance and its associated massive paperwork overhead and payment delay. The preventive care is only as good as the patient is at following the doctors advice. If you are overweight and out of shape that is a PERSONAL problem that likely becomes a "medical" problem, there is no magic "get in shape" pill. Much of true preventive "care" is simply having a decent diet and execise routine.

    I have most of my "health" problems due to the accumulated damage from multiple motorcycle accidents and the related plates/screws, bone grafts and soft tissue damage from them. I "lived hard" and now must pay the price for it. I want only a "catastrophic" medical insurance policy that has a $5,000 annual deductable and pays 100% of medical costs beyond that, so ObamaCare for me is the problem and not the solution.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-29-12 at 09:52 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  3. #63
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by PerfectStorm View Post
    Where does one find this "free" money?
    From 2014 to 2016, the federal government will pay 100% of the cost of the Medicaid expansion for the states that opt in. This share will gradually decline, until the federal government pays 90% of the cost in 2020. Any state government that turns down a 10-to-1 matching Medicaid grant is motivated solely by fanaticism. I'm sure there are a few of them, but there won't be many and they won't hold out for long.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    They did indeed reach out to conservatives. They jettisoned the public option and adopted the individual mandate to get a compromise, precisely because Republicans like Chuck Grassley and Orrin Hatch were telling them that they could find a broad consensus around an individual mandate as late as the summer of 2009. So the Democrats tried it...and the entire Republican Party did an about-face, gave them the finger, burnt down 20 years of intellectual groundwork they themselves had laid for the individual mandate, pissed on the ashes, and salted the earth so nothing could ever grow their again.

    Under those circumstances, what possible bipartisan agreement do you imagine was possible? As far as I can tell, the GOP doesn't even *have* a health care platform anymore, because their previous platform is now the law of the land in the form of PPACA.
    All talk of tort reform, allowing world free market access to drugs and allowing HSA/catstrophic coverage were rejected in similar fashion by the demorats. I agree that the republicants were acting like idiots as well, but the current DC morons, of both parties are not helping matters by ADDING more gov't control of "private" medical insurance using mandates in place of direct taxation to accomplish "reform". Most of ObamaCare, and the reason that it is so darned complicated, is designed to HIDE the costs, or shift them to the states, rather than to actually control or reduce them.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  5. #65
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    Were the death panels ruled constitutional?
    Only for everyone but you.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Obamacare's purpose is to convert our current HC System to a Socialized and Centrally Controlled Institution like they currently have in Europe.
    I wish...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Your employer is going to drop you from their HC coverage. Premiums are already going up and will continue to rise as people actually start paying for "Free HC for all" and "Free contraception for women" ect. A new system develops, people learn the system. People game the system. If you think there's waste and fraud in Medicare and Medicaid now just waste. Anything the Government is involved in where they hand out free stuff at taxpayer expense always attracts people who will game the system.
    If what you say were true, health care would be much more expensive in Europe than here. In fact it is way cheaper there than here. And higher quality too.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    They did indeed reach out to conservatives. They jettisoned the public option and adopted the individual mandate to get a compromise, precisely because Republicans like Chuck Grassley and Orrin Hatch were telling them that they could find a broad consensus around an individual mandate as late as the summer of 2009. So the Democrats tried it...and the entire Republican Party did an about-face, gave them the finger, burnt down 20 years of intellectual groundwork they themselves had laid for the individual mandate, pissed on the ashes, and salted the earth so nothing could ever grow their again.

    Under those circumstances, what possible bipartisan agreement do you imagine was possible? As far as I can tell, the GOP doesn't even *have* a health care platform anymore, because their previous platform is now the law of the land in the form of PPACA.
    If that were true Orrin Hatch and Chuck Grassley would have voted for Obamacare. But let's move our conversation along.

    You know there are going to be glitches and problems in the administration of Obamacare over the next decade. That's in the nature of all major legislation. Some of those problems will require legislative resolution. How will the Democrats be able to fix those problems unless they control the Senate with sixty votes, the House of Representatives and the Presidency? It took George Bush's failed presidency to let the Democrats run the table in 2006 and 2008. It's unlikely the Perfect Storm will happen again in your lifetime or mine.

  8. #68
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    All talk of tort reform, allowing world free market access to drugs and allowing HSA/catstrophic coverage were rejected in similar fashion by the demorats.
    Tort reform - A minor issue. In any case, this *was* offered as a bargaining chip to get Republicans on board. Obama said many times that he was willing to play ball on tort reform. No dice.

    World free market access to drugs - Far from being a potential source of bipartisan agreement, this is a virtual nonstarter among the majority of congresspeople of BOTH parties. They get way too much money from pharmaceutical companies to allow this.

    HSAs - These are indeed part of the PPACA.

    Catastrophic coverage - I agree that a focus on catastrophic coverage would be good, but do you really think that this one offering to Republicans would have got a bipartisan agreement? I find it much more likely that they simply would have abandoned THAT policy too and denounced it as socialist, just like they did with the individual mandate.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    From 2014 to 2016, the federal government will pay 100% of the cost of the Medicaid expansion for the states that opt in. This share will gradually decline, until the federal government pays 90% of the cost in 2020. Any state government that turns down a 10-to-1 matching Medicaid grant is motivated solely by fanaticism. I'm sure there are a few of them, but there won't be many and they won't hold out for long.
    Promises can be EASILY broken, what guarantee does this generous medicaid fund matching come with? Once the Medcaid machine gets cranked up, what state can say no? The difference between the "expanded" and normal medicaid is simply an "eligibility" difference, easily "tweaked" to move people from one "class" of medicaid user to another.

    The same "deal" was done for federal UI benefit extensions was it not? Unlike the federal gov't, a state must actually tax to spend, the federal gov't now spends 40% more than it dare ask for intaxation, states have no such luxury. The states get LOTS of federal aid as bribes to accept illegal aliens and to provide them "state" services. WHat is givin can be taken away, and ALWAYS has strings attached, just ask AZ after they passed SB1070, and Obama "punished" them for it.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  10. #70
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    It now appears that the dissent of the conservative Justices was at one time the majority opinion, and that Roberts changed his vote based on intimidation. He was intimidated by threats to delegitimize the Supreme Court if Obamacare wasn't validated. It may be that Chief Justice put his fears about the institution of the Supreme Court over his duty to interpret the Constitution. If this is true, Chief Justice Roberts breached his duty to the Constitution.

    The supreme court long ago gave away its legitimacy...how can it be possible you have 4 justices ALWAYS vote one way and 4 justices ALWAYS vote the opposite of the other 4...with one swinger that swings back and forth...its nonesense has been for years.

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