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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Questions for my liberal friends:

    How important is conservative acquiesence to Obamacare in view of the inevitable glitches and unforeseen problems that will invariably develop with such a massive piece of legislation?
    It's hard to tell until the main provisions take effect. We can worry about fixing the flaws once it becomes clear what they are.

    What if the costs of Obamacare hurt the economy and consevatives won't allow liberals to repair and fix the legislation?
    Then hopefully the voters will punish the GOP for hurting the economy like that. But we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Agreed. What we need, quite simply, is Medicare for all.
    There may be a time when that is the best solution, but I do not think now is that time, nor is it garunteed that there will be a time when it is best. Finding solutions within the framework that is already in place is the best thing at this time.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    We need to break the link between employment and health insurance. Getting our health insurance through employers is one of the dumbest, inefficient, and most idiosyncratic quirks of the American health care system. It traps people in jobs which they hate or aren't good at, it discourages people from starting businesses or going back to school, and it leaves people's health coverage at the mercy of their employer's whim.

    We'd be far better off to transition to a system where employers just give us money, and we buy our health insurance individually. PPACA doesn't go nearly far enough in that regard, but at least it's a start and it opens the door to future expansion. If PPACA encourages employers to drop coverage of their employees, I consider that a feature rather than a bug.
    WOW. We agree on that! That is STEP ONE in medical insurance reform, making ALL of the people aware of its HUGE cost. Even under PPACA "private" medical care insurance is virtually guaranteed to ADD 20% overhead/profit to medical care costs, as all amounts over that must be refunded. STEP TWO is to allow, rather than BAN (as PPACA does) the INTERSTATE marketing of "catastrophic" medical care insurance, that has a high annual deductable, but pays 100% of medical care costs over that deductable. Every year that one is NOT spending a lot on medical care, then that money can be saved, building a savings account that allows their "catastrophic" annual deductable to be raised, saving even more money on medical care insurance the next year. When people pay cash, they SHOP AROUND forcing fair market competition to help keep medical care costs in check. As it is now, you can't even find out what the actual care costs are; it is treated as a "trade secret" agreement between the insurance company and the doctor.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 07-01-12 at 03:19 PM.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Questions for my liberal friends:

    How important is conservative acquiesence to Obamacare in view of the inevitable glitches and unforeseen problems that will invariably develop with such a massive piece of legislation?

    What if the costs of Obamacare hurt the economy and consevatives won't allow liberals to repair and fix the legislation?
    There is not going to be conservative acquiescence on this any time in the near future.

    The inevitable problems is why I favored a more gradual, step by step approach to improving health care. That is, make a few smaller changes, see what happens, then look at making more changes, see what happens, make more changes, until we get to where we have a sustainable, accessible, working health care system.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Le sigh. You are slow on the uptake. Use your head. Are employers required to provide health care as a part of compensation? No they are not. They are being compelled to do so. That is forcing commerce as a portion of compensation. The commerce clause has been redefined to be unable to force commerce where it does not already exist. You can compel that behavior through a tax, you cannot mandate it.

    This is at the heart of the ruling regarding the commerce clause and the power to tax.
    No. That just is not a correct understanding of the decision. You've got the big picture, but you're misunderstanding the details. I'm telling you, 100% for a fact, the decision deals with the individual mandate, not the employer mandate.

    The majority said that the commerce clause does not allow Congress to force somebody who isn't engaging in commerce to engage in commerce. But an employer already is engaging in commerce. They are paying employees. That is commerce. The Congress wouldn't be forcing them to move from the not-engaging-in-commerce column to the is-engaging-in-commerce column. They were engaged in commerce all along, by definition. An employer is one who employs somebody. Employing somebody is commerce.

    We regulate employment conditions and compensation all the time under the commerce clause. Bans on child labor, minimum wage, rules protecting collective bargaining, OSHA, requirements, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Because it costs less than the coverage that they are offering. See: unintended consequences.
    That doesn't make sense lol. So they offered it when there was no fine. Now there is a fine. So they would drop coverage now? That's ridiculous. Think it over before you respond...
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It's hard to tell until the main provisions take effect. We can worry about fixing the flaws once it becomes clear what they are.



    Then hopefully the voters will punish the GOP for hurting the economy like that. But we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
    Oh I think the public will hold some responsibility to the dems for passing the horrible law in the first place. But you likely may be right.

    I wonder who gets held responsible when we cant keep paying for all this crap? Or if it causes yet another recession or worse yet, a depression.

    The health care act is a gigantic drag on hiring.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    WOW. We agree on that! That is STEP ONE in medical insurance reform, making ALL of the people aware of its HUGE cost. Even under PPACA "private" medical care insurance is virtually guaranteed to ADD 20% overhead/profit to medical care costs, as all amounts over that must be refunded. STEP TWO is to allow, rather than BAN (as PPACA does) the INTERSTATE marketing of "catastrophic" medical care insurance, that has a high annual deductable, but pays 100% of medical care costs over that deductable. Every year that one is NOT spending a lot on medical care then that money can be saved, building a savings that allows their "catastrophic" annual deductable to be raised, saving even more money on medical care insurance. When people pay cash, they SHOP AROUND forcing fair market competition to help keep medical care costs in check. As it is now, you can't even find out what the actual care costs are; it is treated as a "trade secret" agreement between the insurance company and the doctor.
    Why deal at all with deductables, co-insurance and all of that crap? Just eliminate health insurance and pay straight up tax for free medical care, at the state level.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It's hard to tell until the main provisions take effect. We can worry about fixing the flaws once it becomes clear what they are.



    Then hopefully the voters will punish the GOP for hurting the economy like that. But we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
    Obamacare will be like all other social welfare spending. Costs will explode. This will harm the economy. A legislative fix won't be possible.

    Your side won't hold sixty seats in the Senate again during our lifetimes.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    We, do not agree :P

    Individual payers are more responsible with the purchases if its their money and will hold insurance companies more accountable. Give the insurance regulators some serious teeth and move insurance to individuals and you WILL see costs drop.
    That is demonstrably not the case. Most people who have insurance don't even know what theyre being billed, or for that matter, what their insurance costs. If someone's insurance covers an MRI, there is no incentive to shop around for the best deal on an MRI. And doctors are the same way. Mary probably doesn't need an MRI -- it's probably a waste of money -- but she's got insurance so hey, why not just where a belt and suspenders? It's just the insurance company, right?
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It's hard to tell until the main provisions take effect. We can worry about fixing the flaws once it becomes clear what they are.



    Then hopefully the voters will punish the GOP for hurting the economy like that. But we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
    LOL. Did Nancy Pelosi tell you to say that? We just have to wait YEARS and then see what this massive 3,000+ pages of legal garbage really means.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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