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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Health care as compensation is unregulated. ITS OPTIONAL. Mandating it is not allowable through commerce, its allowable through taxing powers. Its at the heart of the decision, to force providing insurance or commerce where before it was not. Commerce clause was pinned back by the decision to say that forcing commerce where it does not exist is not allowed, but you can force that through a tax and it must be described as such.
    Think about what you're saying. "forcing commerce where it does not exist is not allowed". An employer is engaging in commerce. Paying a person for their time is commerce.

    Seriously, the decision did not deal with the employer mandate. There is zero question about that. It dealt only with the individual mandate.

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    For bolded: neither do you deserve respect nor should you misrepresent the formation of the Tea Party, it formed during the stimulus and TARP and the bailouts, not the health care act. Again disinformation.
    If the teabaggers wanted decent Americans to respect them they should not have set out to harm the most vulnerable members of our society. Had they formed to try to help people instead of to hurt them, but I disagreed with the way they went about it, I would at least treat them with respect. But when a group sets out to hurt people for no reason other than shortsighted greed, that is not possible to respect that. It is just immorality and stupidity incarnate.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    An employer, that now pays $4K per employee in medical care insurance benefits (plus handles all the insurance paperwork) and has 100 employees now spends $400K in "overhead"; in return that money is not taxed as income, saving that employer say 25% or $100K in income taxes. If that employer drops that medical care insurance benefit, pays the PPACA tax of $140K, then they can give pay raises of $240K (or an average of $2,400 per employee) and break about even (but have no insurance paperwork to mess with). Is this what "we the people" really want? The OBVIOUS advantage, to the employer, is that medical care insurance costs (rising at 9%/year) no longer have to be factored into the price of their goods and services.
    Why would an employer be more likely to quit offering insurance after a fine is imposed on it than before?
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    An employer, that now pays $4K per employee in medical care insurance benefits (plus handles all the insurance paperwork) and has 100 employees now spends $400K in "overhead"; in return that money is not taxed as income, saving that employer say 25% or $100K in income taxes. If that employer drops that medical care insurance benefit, pays the PPACA tax of $140K, then they can give pay raises of $240K (or an average of $2,400 per employee) and break about even (but have no insurance paperwork to mess with). Is this what "we the people" really want?
    We need to break the link between employment and health insurance. Getting our health insurance through employers is one of the dumbest, inefficient, and most idiosyncratic quirks of the American health care system. It traps people in jobs which they hate or aren't good at, it discourages people from starting businesses or going back to school, and it leaves people's health coverage at the mercy of their employer's whim.

    We'd be far better off to transition to a system where employers just give us money, and we buy our health insurance individually. PPACA doesn't go nearly far enough in that regard, but at least it's a start and it opens the door to future expansion. If PPACA encourages employers to drop coverage of their employees, I consider that a feature rather than a bug.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-01-12 at 03:03 PM.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Think about what you're saying. "forcing commerce where it does not exist is not allowed". An employer is engaging in commerce. Paying a person for their time is commerce.

    Seriously, the decision did not deal with the employer mandate. There is zero question about that. It dealt only with the individual mandate.



    If the teabaggers wanted decent Americans to respect them they should not have set out to harm the most vulnerable members of our society. Had they formed to try to help people instead of to hurt them, but I disagreed with the way they went about it, I would at least treat them with respect. But when a group sets out to hurt people for no reason other than shortsighted greed, that is not possible to respect that. It is just immorality and stupidity incarnate.
    Le sigh. You are slow on the uptake. Use your head. Are employers required to provide health care as a part of compensation? No they are not. They are being compelled to do so. That is forcing commerce as a portion of compensation. The commerce clause has been redefined to be unable to force commerce where it does not already exist. You can compel that behavior through a tax, you cannot mandate it.

    This is at the heart of the ruling regarding the commerce clause and the power to tax.

    Why would an employer be more likely to quit offering insurance after a fine is imposed on it than before?
    Because it costs less than the coverage that they are offering. See: unintended consequences.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Questions for my liberal friends:

    How important is conservative acquiesence to Obamacare in view of the inevitable glitches and unforeseen problems that will invariably develop with such a massive piece of legislation?

    What if the costs of Obamacare hurt the economy and consevatives won't allow liberals to repair and fix the legislation?

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    We need to break the link between employment and health insurance. Getting our health insurance through employers is one of the dumbest, inefficient, and most idiosyncratic quirks of the American health care system. It traps people in jobs which they hate or aren't good at, it discourages people from starting businesses or going back to school, and it leaves people's health coverage at the mercy of their employer's whim.
    Kandahar---we agree on something at least.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    We need to break the link between employment and health insurance.
    Agreed. What we need, quite simply, is Medicare for all.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Agreed. What we need, quite simply, is Medicare for all.
    We, do not agree :P

    Individual payers are more responsible with the purchases if its their money and will hold insurance companies more accountable. Give the insurance regulators some serious teeth and move insurance to individuals and you WILL see costs drop.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Agreed. What we need, quite simply, is Medicare for all.
    No, what we need is for everybody to provide for their own needs and not pass it off on to others.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    We need to break the link between employment and health insurance. Getting our health insurance through employers is one of the dumbest, inefficient, and most idiosyncratic quirks of the American health care system. It traps people in jobs which they hate or aren't good at, it discourages people from starting businesses or going back to school, and it leaves people's health coverage at the mercy of their employer's whim.

    We'd be far better off to transition to a system where employers just give us money, and we buy our health insurance individually. PPACA doesn't go nearly far enough in that regard, but at least it's a start and it opens the door to future expansion. If PPACA encourages employers to drop coverage of their employees, I consider that a feature rather than a bug.
    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Kandahar---we agree on something at least.
    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Agreed. What we need, quite simply, is Medicare for all.
    Agreed, although Kandahar's second paragraph says we independently buy insurance. I agree with AdamT - Medicare for all. Single payer, through the states. No more medical insurance industry, except for premium health insurance I you want to pay for it. No federal government involved in social welfare, including education, welfare, unemployment and medical care...all of that is at the state level.

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