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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

  1. #51
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Charging more not based on better care/coverage or higher risk but simply because it is "fair" is nonsense, nothing more than income redistribution, using the GUISE of the "private" market to "level the field". Obamacare is simply a tax on the young/healthy to pay for care of the old/obese/sick, and nothing more.
    So? You pay a bit more when you're young and a bit less when you're old. That's probably a good thing since you're working and more able to pay it when you're younger.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    The mandate means NOTHING if I may by the cheapest possible policy (or pay the fine, if it is less), then AFTER I get sick/injured "upgrade" it to the BEST possible plan (no pre-existing condidtion can be considered), paying very high monthly premiums, ONLY until treatment is completed and then reverting back to the cheapest available plan.
    Honestly these scenarios about people trying to change their level of coverage to game the system seem a bit far fetched to me. I mean, sure, I'm sure some people would try it. But most people just don't operate that way. Regardless though, the minimums ensure that all plans cover the kinds of catestrophic things that cost a lot of money, so you can't really do that.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  2. #52
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I don't know all the details, but probably not. It's sort of a subspecies of the freeloader problem. People get those kinds of plans and then skimp on preventative care and it ends up creating most costs in the long run.
    Thats not neccessarily true. McDonalds has more comprehensive plans for their employees but the majority of their workers are very young--college/high school age, they just want emergency medical, if they need to go for something routine, they pay out of pocket. Younger people dont tend to need comprehensive medical normally unless they have something already in their background.

  3. #53
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    We do not know this as a certainty. The CBO has to rescore the bill under its current guidelines as handed down by SCOTUS. No medicare increases and Ive got to assume no exemptions will be allowed as federal taxes are not able to be exempted without direct legislative action.
    This is true, the CBO will need to rescore the bill based on the Supreme Court's rulings. However, you are incorrect that there are no Medicaid increases (I assume you meant Medicaid and not Medicare?) The Medicaid expansion is still happening...the Supreme Court merely ruled that the federal government can't threaten states' existing Medicaid funding if they refuse to participate in the expansion.

    In terms of how the ruling will actually affect the implementation of the law, the most likely answer is "not much." States are getting an insanely good deal on the Medicaid expansion...the federal government is picking up 100% of the tab for the first couple years, and 90% of the tab thereafter. Are there states that are governed by people with such fanatical hatred for Obama that they'd be willing to turn down a lot of free money just to stick it to him? Possibly, but there aren't very many of them. And even those states will most likely get on board quietly after a couple years, once the furor has blown over a bit.

    On a year to year basis its going to run a deficit because of the 2 year funding gimmick.
    Incorrect. According to the CBO, the ACA will run a surplus until 2014, which will transition to a small deficit in 2014-2015, then go back to being a surplus from 2016 onward. The ten-year impact is a surplus, which actually gets larger towards the end of the period.

    Its also expected to run $700billion more than projected.
    This is simply not true.
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  4. #54
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The Supreme Court just affirmed that you are free to go without health insurance if you like; that's completely fine. You just have to pay an irresponsibility tax, to cover the costs for when you end up in the emergency room and stick the public with the bill.
    Actually no, the SCOTUS affirmed that the congress may levy punitive taxes.

    Btw, here's an pretty good fact check of both sides and their claims.
    Last edited by clownboy; 06-29-12 at 09:35 PM.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Thats not neccessarily true. McDonalds has more comprehensive plans for their employees but the majority of their workers are very young--college/high school age, they just want emergency medical, if they need to go for something routine, they pay out of pocket. Younger people dont tend to need comprehensive medical normally unless they have something already in their background.
    The biggest problem with the US's health care system cost wise is that we don't get enough preventative care. It is way, way, cheaper to prevent loads of kinds of problems than to treat them after they arise. For example, many men between say 18 and 40 will only go to the doctor once every 5 or even 10 years when something goes wrong. That is a huge problem because they can develop all kinds of conditions and whatnot during that time and not realize it. High cholesterol, high blood pressure, that kind of stuff. Women on the other hand generally go once a year or more their whole lives and that is part of why women's lifespans are so much longer. In most first world countries they have much more of a focus on preventative care, which is why they often have longer lifespans and it is a big part of why they have so much lower medical costs overall. The goal with the minimums is largely to eliminate barriers to getting preventative care to try to get us back on course in that regard.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Socialized system? Uh... What?
    Yes

    Obamacare's purpose is to convert our current HC System to a Socialized and Centrally Controlled Institution like they currently have in Europe. Your employer is going to drop you from their HC coverage. Premiums are already going up and will continue to rise as people actually start paying for "Free HC for all" and "Free contraception for women" ect. A new system develops, people learn the system. People game the system. If you think there's waste and fraud in Medicare and Medicaid now just waste. Anything the Government is involved in where they hand out free stuff at taxpayer expense always attracts people who will game the system.

    For example in CA if you know the right people you can have your dog registered as a "Service Dog". Having a registered service dogs gives you perks that the Government pays for. One example is medial care for the pet. Your "certified service dog" which is actually just a rat infested chihuaha needs dental work that will cost 1100$? You pay 100$. The taxpayers will cover the rest. You seem to be under the assumption that the money fairies just either print the money at the fed which automatically makes it valuable, or they grab it from "Obama's stash". Obamacare is an absolute disaster and you're sitting there acting like it's not something that it actually is. Like somehow if you mock it and claim it's not a fast track to complete Government control of HC that somehow makes that true. It doesn't. Here, let's see what Obama thought it:

    Obama on single payer health insurance - YouTube

    You would demanding this law be repealed immediately if wasn't effective at converting the US HC System into a single payer, Government run system.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Debating you is a wonderful, but laborious process. Fortunately, I'm retired and have plenty of time on my hands. The CBO scores legislation based on the assumptions it is given. The CBO does not look to any info other than the assumptions it is given. There is no independent review. Before passage President Obama sent the bill to the CBO with a set of assumptions that demonstrated it would be revenue neutral.
    The only way you can get an extra $700 billion is if you make a series of assumptions completely unrelated to the ACA. For example, Republicans asked the CBO to determine the budgetary impact if the "Doc Fix" continues to be implemented year after year...then pretended that that was part of the cost of the ACA, even though the "Doc Fixes" already existed and had nothing to do with the ACA.

    Every time the CBO has scored the budgetary implications of the actual contents of the ACA (rather than things that Republicans might *wish* were in the ACA but aren't), they've found that its effect on the budget is to reduce the deficit.

    Furthermore, even if the CBO were to eventually find that it would increase the deficit, that doesn't make reconciliation an illegitimate act. You don't go back and question the legitimacy of every law if the circumstances change in the future; you either change the law or you just deal with it.

    Because of that fact the Budget Reconciliation process was used illegitimately, and what you refer to as tweaks should have been subjected to unlimited debate as the filibuster rules would otherwise require. But there wouldn't have been sixty votes to allow those tweaks. So why bother tweaking as you assert?
    Are you questioning the legitimacy of the entire PPACA, or just those few small tweaks? If you're only interested in debating the latter, it's simply not important enough of an issue for me to care about. The PPACA is where the meat of the law is, and it was passed with 60 votes in the Senate through the standard process.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The Supreme Court just affirmed that you are free to go without health insurance if you like; that's completely fine. You just have to pay an irresponsibility tax, to cover the costs for when you end up in the emergency room and stick the public with the bill.
    Myths of the "Free Rider" Health Care Problem - Forbes

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Are there states that are governed by people with such fanatical hatred for Obama that they'd be willing to turn down a lot of free money just to stick it to him? .
    Where does one find this "free" money?

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I mean that they hate the health care reform. Obviously.
    You mean they disagree with Socialized HC that liberals try to label as "Health Care Reform"

    Socialized Medicine is not Health Care Reform.

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