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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

  1. #561
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Yet, whe I showed you the "overall" numbers, (i.e. what medicaid costs per person allually) you clow them off as "unrepresentative" of what these 45 million added people will likely cost. You can not have it both ways, medical care expenses are 1/6 of the U.S. economy, that FACT does not change by spreding the costs around differently.
    Actually it does. And as proof of this, I submit the example of every other developed country in the world, which has universal health care and a fraction of the costs.

    The numbers used to justify PPACA are pure BS, and have ALREADY been adjusted upward by the CBO by 70%, and it has yet to even take effect.
    Sigh. I've already debunked this silly point in this thread. And I don't feel like responding to it, or even digging through posts to find my previous response.
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  2. #562
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    Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    which of my taxes will be going up?

    income tax? SS? Medicaid?

    state income taxes? local income taxes? local sales tax?

    please, tell me.
    Didn't the SC say that paying for health care insurance is a tax? So think outside the box. For those who do not currently have hc insurance, mandating they purchase hc insurance is a tax. If you currenty have hc insurace, your (new tax) would remain the same unless rates goes up. For those that donot purchase hc insurance, they will pay a tax penality.

  3. #563
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    Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    No, the argument before and after was that it's a tax penalty -- not a tax. Although in fact it could be structured as a tax with a credit to fully offset the cost of the tax.

    The point is that the Supreme Court did not suddenly pull back the curtain and reveal that the penalty does something that we didn't think it would do before. There has never been any ambiguity about how the penalty operates. This is simply a semantic argument about how it's characterized.
    My goodness. The disingenuousness of it all should really disturb you as a defender of this administrations policies Adam. In 2009 Obama tried to 'school' George Snufolupogus when he pressed Obama on it being a tax, and indeed after years of getting to the point of Obama nearly visibly getting upset with anyone who said it was a tax, sent his lawyer to the SC to argue that it was exactly that, and now that they won the decision on that tact, liberals now want to immediately go back to saying is isn't a tax?

    Well, y'all can do that if you want, but that is I think one step too far in the lies we've had to endure with this President.
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  4. #564
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No. Maybe that's the subject YOU want to discuss, but it's certainly not anything *I* care about. I'm interested in the policy, not in semantical distinctions. Call it a tax all day if you like, scream it to the high heavens if you think it will help your case in electing someone else. Whatever.
    You so obviously do care, at least your arguments here betray you do. It is a tax, the SCOTUS says it is, the president's legal team argued it is a tax. The only ones saying it's not a tax is the POTUS and those defending him for re-election.

    If you only care about policy, then stop wiggling about the lies of the president and argue policy.

    Tax or not tax, it's bad policy.

  5. #565
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    Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    Didn't the SC say that paying for health care insurance is a tax? So think outside the box. For those who do not currently have hc insurance, mandating they purchase hc insurance is a tax. If you currenty have hc insurace, your (new tax) would remain the same unless rates goes up. For those that donot purchase hc insurance, they will pay a tax penality.
    So you're saying that when I pay mortgage interest, that's also a tax? A tax I'm paying to Wells Fargo?
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    So you're saying that when I pay mortgage interest, that's also a tax? A tax I'm paying to Wells Fargo?
    What do you think the SC said about health care? They ruled it is a tax., if it isn't then they would have ruled differently.

    The govt. doesn't mandate you buy a house. Bad example.

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    Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    My goodness. The disingenuousness of it all should really disturb you as a defender of this administrations policies Adam. In 2009 Obama tried to 'school' George Snufolupogus when he pressed Obama on it being a tax, and indeed after years of getting to the point of Obama nearly visibly getting upset with anyone who said it was a tax, sent his lawyer to the SC to argue that it was exactly that, and now that they won the decision on that tact, liberals now want to immediately go back to saying is isn't a tax?

    Well, y'all can do that if you want, but that is I think one step too far in the lies we've had to endure with this President.
    Again, there is nothing disingenuous about it. I knew in 2009 how the penalty worked and nothing about that has changed. Whether you call it a penalty, a tax penalty or a Sam Sausagehead penalty, it still does the same thing and everyone has known all along what it does.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

  8. #568
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    What I mean is that there is no functional difference between either of the following:
    - Taxing someone 2.5% of their income for not buying health insurance.
    - Raising taxes by 2.5%, then offering a 2.5% tax credit for people who buy health insurance.

    In either case, everyone ends with exactly the same amount of money...the government, the participants, and the non-participants.



    No, you'll be taxed for the privilege of getting your bills covered if you get sick or injured, so that you DON'T die.
    Then do that directly with taxation and make it REAL, don't play clever accounting games and then PRETEND that the PPACA is "fair". Medical care costs NOW amount about 1/6 of our economy yet NOBODY is talking about an 18% medical care tax, all of the numbers used are 2% to 9% range which is not even close to the REAL cost. The AVERAGE annual cost PER PERSON for U.S. medical care is over $7,000 yet is NEVER discussed, do the simple math of 45 million multiplied by $7K and see what PPACA is likely to REALLY cost.

    Link: Health care in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    What do you think the SC said about health care? They ruled it is a tax., if it isn't then they would have ruled differently.

    The govt. doesn't mandate you buy a house. Bad example.
    Au contraire. The government has mandated me to buy a house in the same way that it's mandating insurance. If I don't have a mortgage then I'm being penalized through the tax code insofar as I would be paying more than people who do have a mortgage. Thus, according to your logic, the mortgage interest I'm paying is a tax.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    no its a penalty collected as a tax.
    That's correct, even the news side of Fox News says this: (watch the video)


    Fox Vs. Fox On "Massive New Tax" That Only Affects A Small Number Of People | Media Matters for America


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