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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

  1. #551
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    That's right. My point is the WHO are comparing apples and oranges. Subsidized systems and systems that have contribution to health services from outside with those without that.
    That's not much of an argument if you're trying to say that subsidies are bad.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

  2. #552
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    That "same either way" NONSENSE assumes EQUALITY in the penalty and benefit, which is NOT true under PPACA.
    What I mean is that there is no functional difference between either of the following:
    - Taxing someone 2.5% of their income for not buying health insurance.
    - Raising taxes by 2.5%, then offering a 2.5% tax credit for people who buy health insurance.

    In either case, everyone ends with exactly the same amount of money...the government, the participants, and the non-participants.

    Having insurance saves me NOTHING, since I now pay CASH for my medical care and spend less than $2K annually at that. If I get sick or injured, beyond what I can pay for, then I will likely die; for that "privilege" I am now to be taxed?
    No, you'll be taxed for the privilege of getting your bills covered if you get sick or injured, so that you DON'T die.
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  3. #553
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You left out ONE important option, which is to sue the bus company, exactly what your medical insurance provider would do.
    Wow, you're really in the mood to parse words instead of actually discussing the issue. Alright, well say you get hit by a falling rock then. Or something else where there's no one to sue.
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  4. #554
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I already told you I'm not going to play semantic games. I really don't care if you want to call it a tax, a penalty, a giraffe, or anything else you like. I'm interested in POLICY.
    That's nice, and a wonderful moving of goal posts. But the subject at hand was whether or not the POTUS was lying when he continues to says it's not a tax.

    You weren't arguing POLICY, you were arguing whether it was a tax or not.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    That's not much of an argument if you're trying to say that subsidies are bad.
    I wasn't. Where did I ever say that?

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    Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    My how the tune has changed. Anyone remember what proponents on this mandate argued before this ruling? Before SCOTUS upheld the mandate so many proponents on this board were using the arguement that it was a tax to those that were against the mandate and therefore was constitutional. Now that SCOTUS has affirmed that it IS a tax and this particular side of the arguement has come up it is magically "not a tax".

    But regardless of what proponents are saying in this thread now, facts are facts. And the fact is that SCOTUS has upheld the mandate AS A TAX!. Not a penalty. You can continue to argue that it is not a tax all that you want but SCOTUS showed otherwise. If you continue to deny this fact then only one of three conditions arise.

    1: You're stupid.
    2: You're a liar.
    3: You're both.

    Or you can accept the facts and admit that it is a tax which will show everyone that...

    1: You're not stupid.
    2: You're honest.
    3: You're both.

    Obama and Co. has already shown which ones they are. Will you continue to follow him on this issue or think independently? Something which many of you claim to value and claim that those on the opposite aisle do not do.

    I think that is a fair and correct assessment. The telling of how bad this is for the administration, is that they are running from addressing this honestly, talking about how they need to move back to the economy...Anytime that happens in the Obama administration you know they have a huge problem over this.
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  7. #557
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    Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    My how the tune has changed. Anyone remember what proponents on this mandate argued before this ruling? Before SCOTUS upheld the mandate so many proponents on this board were using the arguement that it was a tax to those that were against the mandate and therefore was constitutional. Now that SCOTUS has affirmed that it IS a tax and this particular side of the arguement has come up it is magically "not a tax".

    But regardless of what proponents are saying in this thread now, facts are facts. And the fact is that SCOTUS has upheld the mandate AS A TAX!. Not a penalty. You can continue to argue that it is not a tax all that you want but SCOTUS showed otherwise. If you continue to deny this fact then only one of three conditions arise.

    1: You're stupid.
    2: You're a liar.
    3: You're both.

    Or you can accept the facts and admit that it is a tax which will show everyone that...

    1: You're not stupid.
    2: You're honest.
    3: You're both.

    Obama and Co. has already shown which ones they are. Will you continue to follow him on this issue or think independently? Something which many of you claim to value and claim that those on the opposite aisle do not do.
    No, the argument before and after was that it's a tax penalty -- not a tax. Although in fact it could be structured as a tax with a credit to fully offset the cost of the tax.

    The point is that the Supreme Court did not suddenly pull back the curtain and reveal that the penalty does something that we didn't think it would do before. There has never been any ambiguity about how the penalty operates. This is simply a semantic argument about how it's characterized.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

  8. #558
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    That's nice, and a wonderful moving of goal posts. But the subject at hand was whether or not the POTUS was lying when he continues to says it's not a tax.
    No. Maybe that's the subject YOU want to discuss, but it's certainly not anything *I* care about. I'm interested in the policy, not in semantical distinctions. Call it a tax all day if you like, scream it to the high heavens if you think it will help your case in electing someone else. Whatever.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I really don't care what you think you would do. Most people would suddenly decide that it is the public's responsibility to care for them after all, and the overall numbers are what our health care system needs to be concerned with. Not what you think you would personally do.
    Yet, when I showed you the "overall" numbers, (i.e. what medicaid costs per person annually) you blow them off as "unrepresentative" of what these 45 million added people will likely cost. You can not have it both ways, medical care expenses are 1/6 of the U.S. economy, that FACT does not change by spreading the costs around differently. The numbers used to justify PPACA are pure BS, and have ALREADY been adjusted upward by the CBO by 70%, and it has yet to even take effect.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    In watching the Sunday shows this morning I see a lot of fancy dancing by demo's on these shows...One thing strikes me as not only expected, but just as slimy, and underhanded as we've come to expect out of these demo's today....And that is that even though the opinion of the SCOTUS is clear, that the law is a tax, and a huge one, they are all over trying to paint this as not what CJ Roberts, and the majority opinion said it was in order to make it stand.

    So, tell us demo's, now that it is classified as a tax in order to be constitutional, isn't Obama caught in the same lie that did in Geo. H.W. Bush....The "read my lips.." gambit? And how does he prevail now that he is being uncovered as the biggest taxer, and spender we've ever had in office?
    If I were the Dems, I'd be amending the bill as soon as possible to get rid of the tax I claimed wasn't there to begin with.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

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