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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

  1. #531
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Mtt Romney accepts the basic premises of the left, I am not denying that.
    Not just Romney. Gingrich too:

    "We also believe strongly that personal responsibility is vital to creating a 21st Century Intelligent Health System," Gingrich wrote in the memo which was found on an old Gingrich website by BuzzFeed's Andrew Kaczynski. "Individuals who can afford to purchase health insurance and simply choose not to place an unnecessary burden on a system that is on the verge of collapse; these free-riders undermine the entire health system by placing the onus of responsibility on taxpayers."
    And of course the conservative Heritage Foundation which came up with the idea of the mandate to begin with.

    See, when conservatives push the idea it's about personal responsibility. When Obama adopts their idea it's a government takeover of health care.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

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  2. #532
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    Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

    My how the tune has changed. Anyone remember what proponents on this mandate argued before this ruling? Before SCOTUS upheld the mandate so many proponents on this board were using the arguement that it was a tax to those that were against the mandate and therefore was constitutional. Now that SCOTUS has affirmed that it IS a tax and this particular side of the arguement has come up it is magically "not a tax".

    But regardless of what proponents are saying in this thread now, facts are facts. And the fact is that SCOTUS has upheld the mandate AS A TAX!. Not a penalty. You can continue to argue that it is not a tax all that you want but SCOTUS showed otherwise. If you continue to deny this fact then only one of three conditions arise.

    1: You're stupid.
    2: You're a liar.
    3: You're both.

    Or you can accept the facts and admit that it is a tax which will show everyone that...

    1: You're not stupid.
    2: You're honest.
    3: You're both.

    Obama and Co. has already shown which ones they are. Will you continue to follow him on this issue or think independently? Something which many of you claim to value and claim that those on the opposite aisle do not do.
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  3. #533
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    By the same "logic", if a country has 2 doctors for every 1,000,000 people, yet all may queue up to see their doctor for free, then they have "superior" equality and "access" to that medical care. ;-)
    Nope. The WHO's methodology takes into account responsiveness (speed of service, protection of privacy, and quality of amenities). What else you got?
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Except it doesn't, and if you had read the decisions/dissents you'd know that. Some of the justices clearly say this is a punitive tax on inaction, the others say it's just a tax, and one says it should have been allowed under the Commerce Clause, but she'll go along with the tax thing anyway.
    Right. So in other words, the Supreme Court ruled that it's covered under Congress' power to levy a tax.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Explain to me how those three countries offer better care than the US.
    The rankings are based on an index of five factors:[1]
    Health (50%) : disability-adjusted life expectancy
    * Overall or average : 25%
    * Distribution or equality : 25%
    Responsiveness (25%) : speed of service, protection of privacy, and quality of amenities
    * Overall or average : 12.5%
    * Distribution or equality : 12.5%
    Fair financial contribution : 25%
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Not just Romney. Gingrich too:



    And of course the conservative Heritage Foundation which came up with the idea of the mandate to begin with.

    See, when conservatives push the idea it's about personal responsibility. When Obama adopts their idea it's a government takeover of health care.
    For the record, I disagree with all of them. Personal responsibility to me is taking personal responsibility not foisting it upon others. I have no more right to health care I cannot afford than I do to a car or a pair of shoes or a loaf of bread that I cannot afford. Neither you, my neighbor, the public, the collective or the state is responsible for my health care. I am. That is what personal responsibility means.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The 36 nations that rank higher in health care quality than the United States would probably be a good place to start.
    No, a better place to start is how the WHO determines health care quality. If you really want a clearer picture, contrast us with a nation that is as large or larger than us. It's relatively easy to maintain quality among a small group in a highly subsidized environment.

    And if the care is better in Colombia, why are my American friends in Doctors Without Borders always doing missions down there?

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The rankings are based on an index of five factors:[1]
    Health (50%) : disability-adjusted life expectancy
    * Overall or average : 25%
    * Distribution or equality : 25%
    Responsiveness (25%) : speed of service, protection of privacy, and quality of amenities
    * Overall or average : 12.5%
    * Distribution or equality : 12.5%
    Fair financial contribution : 25%
    50% is based upon life expectancy which has little or nothing to do with standard of care. And 25% has to do with "fair financial contribution" which is subjective and has nothing to do with actual care. So at least 75% has little or nothing to do with actual care.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Right. So in other words, the Supreme Court ruled that it's covered under Congress' power to levy a tax.
    Yes, as the Obama admin argued it was before the court. Thank you for acknowledging the facts. That clearly makes the president a liar, he's still telling people it's not a tax.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    For the record, I disagree with all of them. Personal responsibility to me is taking personal responsibility not foisting it upon others. I have no more right to health care I cannot afford than I do to a car or a pair of shoes or a loaf of bread that I cannot afford. Neither you, my neighbor, the public, the collective or the state is responsible for my health care. I am. That is what personal responsibility means.
    Except you'll change your tune if you get hit by a bus and don't have health insurance. THEN you'll suddenly decide that you want someone else to pay for your health care after all. And that's exactly the free-rider problem. One of the original plaintiffs on the ACA case was an outspoken activist who didn't want to have health insurance. When she got sick and stuck the public with the bill, her name was dropped from the lawsuit.
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