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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    OK, so on the one hand we have cross-national studies of health care. On the other hand we have your opinion. Somehow you aren't convincing me.
    OK then, tell me where a better array of doctors, hospitals, equipment and results can be found than in the US.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Exactly, but it does it LEGALLY by rewarding those that DO something, not simply penalizing those that DO NOT. Do you REALLY see NO difference?
    No, they are functionally identical. If you reward someone who does something via the tax code, then you ARE penalizing those that do not. The foregone tax revenue that the government loses by having a tax credit could have been spent on public services, to pay down the debt, or used as an offset to cut taxes in general. Therefore all tax credits are penalizing those who do not receive them.

    And do you mean to tell me that you wouldn't be having a tantrum about the individual mandate if it was written as a tax credit for those who DO have insurance (and this was paid for by a general tax increase)? Somehow I doubt it.

    Fining a company for NOT giving their employees a medical care insurance benefit is FAR different from rewarding those that do, by simply exempting that money from taxation.
    Except it's not. At all. The functional result is exactly the same either way...the taxpayers, the government, the participants, and the non-participants all end with exactly the same amount of money in either scenario.

    Surely, even YOU, can see that CLEAR difference. This is a tax on INACTION, a whole new concept, that has NO basis in either federal taxation or commerce powers previously used, or even imagined to exist.
    The Supreme Court disagrees with you.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    IMHO, the following services should be state and locally funded through a combination of the following taxes: income, property, sales, sin, capital gains. The federal government should only require that states support these services for the health of the community.

    • social welfare for the unemployed and homeless
      • food
      • shelter
      • water
      • skills training
    • education through 12 grade, with apprenticeship and vocational training for those unprepared/incapable for college
      • allow vouchers for private education
    • environmental protection and cleanup
    • healthcare for all
      • single payer to the state
      • private enterprise to service, use voucher system
      • all billing between service provider and state/local government. No bills to consumer.
      • electronic medical records
      • no pre-existing condition bull****
    The principle in play is local/state collective funding for the basic well being of the community.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Well, the World Health Organization seems like a more credible source for that kind of evaluation than some dude on the internet.

    What I suspect you're missing is that there is a whole lot more to having high quality health care than how good the best hospitals and doctors and whatnot you have. For example, imagine a country that has the single best doctor, where that doctor has the very best equipment, and the best facilities, but where 99% of the population can't afford him, so they just go to the local medicine man. Does that country have good health care or bad health care?

    Accessibility of care is a huge variable in the quality of health care a country has and we get demolished by Morocco on that score. Also, our system is set up to discourage preventative care, which is disastrously stupid of us and has terrible repercussions for the quality of care here overall. Also, think of all the major flaws in our system. The other day I signed up for a doctor's appointment. The earliest appointment they had was FIVE WEEKS from then. Probably like 2/3 of potential reasons somebody would need to visit a doctor wouldn't even last five weeks. Remember house calls? Where the doctor would come to your house when you were sick so you didn't need to like schlep around all over town and or on a bus or subway or whatever feeling like you were about to vomit? We don't have those anymore. We haven't had them for a couple of decades. Same day house calls. Think of what a huge upgrade that would be to the quality of our health care. But in most countries, they still have that.

    Living in the US we get used to this notion that everything here is automatically better than anywhere else. Often times, that's true. But it isn't true for health care. Our health care system has been falling apart for decades. It is worse here than it was 25 years ago. Well, countries that were on par with us 25 years ago have continued to progress while we've been sliding backwards, and countries that were 25 years behind us then have now slightly overtaken us.
    By the same "logic", if a country has 2 doctors for every 1,000,000 people, yet all may queue up to see their doctor for free, then they have "superior" equality and "access" to that medical care. ;-)
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Again, the analogy is a strawman and that's why you wish to rely upon it here. You can make of it whatever you wish to suit your bias - unlike the facts of the matter which you cannot deny.
    Look man. I'm trying to simplify it down for you because you seem to be struggling. No need to get snarky if I didn't simplify it down far enough for you to be able to understand it. I guess I overestimated you. Analogies are too tough for you. So, shoot me.

    I'll try to dumb it down even more, but frankly, there aren't a lot of levels left that are simpler than analogies to everyday things.

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    And the president is using the same common palance when talking to the people. That makes it a flat out lie.
    Really try to focus hard on this. Obama is using common parlance. The court is not. You follow?

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Not true, in fact just the reverse. Only one justice (Ginsberg) believes it should have been authorized under the Commerce Clause. Read the decisions and the dissents.
    No, you don't understand. Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan joined Ginsberg's opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    So let's apply your metric to the true condition. Are eight of the justices "lying" and just that one "being honest"?
    Wow. Ok, you still aren't getting it. It isn't like one answer to the question "does the commerce clause authorize X?" is "true" and the others are "lies"... It's so hard to explain this simply enough that you might understand it without an analogy... That would be like saying that if two olympic figure skating judges gave a particular skater different scores, one of them must be lying....

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Your first strawman was rejected, so now you want to try another one? Okay, I'll bite, but let's make it right. If you're still telling people pluto is a planet, even after you found out it's be reclassed as a planetoid, would you be lying?
    No I would not be lying. It still is what people think of as a planet. If you referred to the "planet Pluto" nobody would say you were a liar obviously. They might note that you aren't using the term in the astronomically correct way maybe, but certainly nobody would say you were a "liar" lol.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    No need to convince you. But hey, let's see those studies you claim that show that "Greece, Morocco, and Columbia have better doctors, better hospitals, better equipment, better results than the US" (what Fletch posted).
    I made no such claim, but since you asked, I found that information for you anyway. Here are the rankings for health care quality for the four nations in question, as determined by the World Health Organization:

    #14 Greece
    #22 Colombia
    #29 Morocco
    #37 United States

    And in terms of COST, the United States is #1, Greece is #30, Colombia is #49, and Morocco is #99.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_H...health_systems
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    OK then, tell me where a better array of doctors, hospitals, equipment and results can be found than in the US.
    The 36 nations that rank higher in health care quality than the United States would probably be a good place to start.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The Supreme Court disagrees with you.
    Except it doesn't, and if you had read the decisions/dissents you'd know that. Some of the justices clearly say this is a punitive tax on inaction, the others say it's just a tax, and one says it should have been allowed under the Commerce Clause, but she'll go along with the tax thing anyway.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    There is no problem with care in the US. The problem is cost and, thus, coverage.
    Well, coverage is a big variable in the quality equation. If you have one person with awesome care and the other with terrible care, your average quality of care is mediocre.

    But, on top of that, like I said, even for the wealthy, there are serious quality problems in the US. Long waits, little preventative care, no home visits, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    By the same "logic", if a country has 2 doctors for every 1,000,000 people, yet all may queue up to see their doctor for free, then they have "superior" equality and "access" to that medical care. ;-)
    Er, no... That would be terrible quality of care. Extremely poor access. Not sure what you're thinking of there.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I made no such claim, but since you asked, I found that information for you anyway. Here are the rankings for health care quality for the four nations in question, as determined by the World Health Organization:

    #14 Greece
    #22 Colombia
    #29 Morocco
    #37 United States

    And in terms of COST, the United States is #1, Greece is #30, Colombia is #49, and Morocco is #99.

    World Health Organization ranking of health systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Explain to me how those three countries offer better care than the US.

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