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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Because it distinguishes between the president lying and the president telling the truth.
    A difference of opinion is not lying.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    There is no way you are going to convince me that places like Greece, Morocco, and Columbia have better doctors, better hospitals, better equipment, better results than the US. That is simply not true. The US is the leader in all of those catagories . What we have here is a cost problem, not a care problem. No one in their right mind is going to choose a hospital in Morocco over the Cleveland Clinic.
    Well, the World Health Organization seems like a more credible source for that kind of evaluation than some dude on the internet.

    What I suspect you're missing is that there is a whole lot more to having high quality health care than how good the best hospitals and doctors and whatnot you have. For example, imagine a country that has the single best doctor, where that doctor has the very best equipment, and the best facilities, but where 99% of the population can't afford him, so they just go to the local medicine man. Does that country have good health care or bad health care?

    Accessibility of care is a huge variable in the quality of health care a country has and we get demolished by Morocco on that score. Also, our system is set up to discourage preventative care, which is disastrously stupid of us and has terrible repercussions for the quality of care here overall. Also, think of all the major flaws in our system. The other day I signed up for a doctor's appointment. The earliest appointment they had was FIVE WEEKS from then. Probably like 2/3 of potential reasons somebody would need to visit a doctor wouldn't even last five weeks. Remember house calls? Where the doctor would come to your house when you were sick so you didn't need to like schlep around all over town and or on a bus or subway or whatever feeling like you were about to vomit? We don't have those anymore. We haven't had them for a couple of decades. Same day house calls. Think of what a huge upgrade that would be to the quality of our health care. But in most countries, they still have that.

    Living in the US we get used to this notion that everything here is automatically better than anywhere else. Often times, that's true. But it isn't true for health care. Our health care system has been falling apart for decades. It is worse here than it was 25 years ago. Well, countries that were on par with us 25 years ago have continued to progress while we've been sliding backwards, and countries that were 25 years behind us then have now slightly overtaken us.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Do you have some evidence that Moroccan health care is "on par" with the quality level of Us health care?
    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Morroco is "on par" with the U.S. for medical care "quality"? Link please...
    The World Health Organization ranks every nation's health care system annually. The most recent data that is available (for 2010) ranks Morocco #29 and the United States #37 in terms of quality. In terms of cost, Morocco is #99 and the United States is #1.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_H...health_systems

    But just in case you think that the WHO is an evil, illegitimate, world-government-loving organization that hates the US and therefore skews the data, here's what the CIA says. Life expectancy in the United States is 78.5, and life expectancy in Morocco is 76.1. I'd say that's pretty comparable in terms of the results of our health care systems, especially factoring in the income disparity.

    https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2102rank.html
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-01-12 at 01:12 PM.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Tell it to Mitt Romney, Dude.
    Mtt Romney accepts the basic premises of the left, I am not denying that.

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    LOL The old saying "Might makes right" comes to mind.
    Your not saying it, because it makes you look heartless, but that is where your opinion would lead us to. If it quacks like a duck....
    It is you who are advocating might makes right, not me.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Well, if you can't even grasp the analogy about the SUV, how could you grasp the same issue in a legal context?

    Like the car dealer, Obama is talking about taxation in common parlance. It isn't a tax, it is a penalty for failing to get insurance. They're trying to penalize freeloading, not trying to generate revenue, so that is more like what you think of when you hear "fine" than when you hear "tax". Right?

    But the taxation power in the constitution isn't about whether your typical person on the street thinks of something as a tax or a fine. The taxation power gives Congress the ability to do things that you might consider a fine. Like the DMV in my analogy, it is based on technical standards, not just common parlance.
    Again, the analogy is a strawman and that's why you wish to rely upon it here. You can make of it whatever you wish to suit your bias - unlike the facts of the matter which you cannot deny.

    And the president is using the same common palance when talking to the people. That makes it a flat out lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Furthermore, only one of the nine justices thinks it is authorized by the taxation power, but not the commerce power. And even he didn't even make up his mind about that until two years after the law was passed. Four of the nine justices still, rightly, believe that it is covered under the commerce power and four believe it doesn't even qualify as a tax. Are eight of the justices "lying" and just that one "being honest"?
    Not true, in fact just the reverse. Only one justice (Ginsberg) believes it should have been authorized under the Commerce Clause. Read the decisions and the dissents.

    So let's apply your metric to the true condition. Are eight of the justices "lying" and just that one "being honest"?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Lets try another analogy. Say that I said that pluto was a planet 20 years ago. Was I "lying" because they decided that it was only a "planetoid" recently?
    Your first strawman was rejected, so now you want to try another one? Okay, I'll bite, but let's make it right. If you're still telling people pluto is a planet, even after you found out it's be reclassed as a planetoid, would you be lying?

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    There is no way you are going to convince me that places like Greece, Morocco, and Columbia have better doctors, better hospitals, better equipment, better results than the US. That is simply not true. The US is the leader in all of those catagories . What we have here is a cost problem, not a care problem. No one in their right mind is going to choose a hospital in Morocco over the Cleveland Clinic.
    OK, so on the one hand we have cross-national studies of health care. On the other hand we have your opinion. Somehow you aren't convincing me.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Why? We already have the hybrid car tax credit, which does functionally the same thing.
    Exactly, but it does it LEGALLY by rewarding those that DO something, not simply penalizing those that DO NOT. Do you REALLY see NO difference? Fining a company for NOT giving their employees a medical care insurance benefit is FAR different from rewarding those that do, by simply exempting that money from taxation. Surely, even YOU, can see that CLEAR difference. This is a tax on INACTION, a whole new concept, that has NO basis in either federal taxation or commerce powers previously used, or even imagined to exist.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    OK, so on the one hand we have cross-national studies of health care. On the other hand we have your opinion. Somehow you aren't convincing me.
    No need to convince you. But hey, let's see those studies you claim that show that "Greece, Morocco, and Columbia have better doctors, better hospitals, better equipment, better results than the US" (what Fletch posted).

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Well, the World Health Organization seems like a more credible source for that kind of evaluation than some dude on the internet.

    What I suspect you're missing is that there is a whole lot more to having high quality health care than how good the best hospitals and doctors and whatnot you have. For example, imagine a country that has the single best doctor, where that doctor has the very best equipment, and the best facilities, but where 99% of the population can't afford him, so they just go to the local medicine man. Does that country have good health care or bad health care?

    Accessibility of care is a huge variable in the quality of health care a country has and we get demolished by Morocco on that score. Also, our system is set up to discourage preventative care, which is disastrously stupid of us and has terrible repercussions for the quality of care here overall. Also, think of all the major flaws in our system. The other day I signed up for a doctor's appointment. The earliest appointment they had was FIVE WEEKS from then. Probably like 2/3 of potential reasons somebody would need to visit a doctor wouldn't even last five weeks. Remember house calls? Where the doctor would come to your house when you were sick so you didn't need to like schlep around all over town and or on a bus or subway or whatever feeling like you were about to vomit? We don't have those anymore. We haven't had them for a couple of decades. Same day house calls. Think of what a huge upgrade that would be to the quality of our health care. But in most countries, they still have that.

    Living in the US we get used to this notion that everything here is automatically better than anywhere else. Often times, that's true. But it isn't true for health care. Our health care system has been falling apart for decades. It is worse here than it was 25 years ago. Well, countries that were on par with us 25 years ago have continued to progress while we've been sliding backwards, and countries that were 25 years behind us then have now slightly overtaken us.
    There is no problem with care in the US. The problem is cost and, thus, coverage.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    IMHO, the following services should be state and locally funded through a combination of the following taxes: income, property, sales, sin, capital gains. The federal government should only require that states support these services for the health of the community.

    • social welfare for the unemployed and homeless
      • food
      • shelter
      • water
      • skills training
    • education through 12 grade, with apprenticeship and vocational training for those unprepared/incapable for college
      • allow vouchers for private education
    • environmental protection and cleanup
    • healthcare for all
      • single payer to the state
      • private enterprise to service, use voucher system
      • all billing between service provider and state/local government. No bills to consumer.
      • electronic medical records
      • no pre-existing condition bull****

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