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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

  1. #501
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    Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    If you don't obey the law you could pay a penalty. That's not a tax, even if the authority to levy the penalty arises out of the taxing power. This Republican talking point has already outlived its shelf life.
    What? Republican talking point? What are you talking about...here is the wording that upheld the law.

    "The most straightforward reading of the individual mandate is thatit commands individuals to purchase insurance. But, for the reasons explained, the Commerce Clause does not give Congress that power. It is therefore necessary to turn to the Government’s alternative ar*gument: that the mandate may be upheld as within Congress’s power to “lay and collect Taxes.

    "In pressing its taxing power argument, the Government asks the Court to view the man*date as imposing a tax on those who do not buy that product. Be*cause “every reasonable construction must be resorted to, in order to save a statute from unconstitutionality,” Hooper v. California, 155 U. S. 648, 657, the question is whether it is “fairly possible” to interpret the mandate as imposing such a tax, the shared responsibility payment may for constitutional purposes be considered a tax.

    Read excerpts from the Supreme Court's majority opinion upholding the Affordable Care Act | Nation/World | Detroit Free Press | freep.com
    It is a tax. Period, otherwise it is unconstitutional.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    I see. So because people wont pick up some greasy drifter hitch hiking along the road, all of America is selfish and rotten. Dude, sane people dont pick up hitch hikers. Buy a car and stop free-loading and looking for a free ride. Time to grow up.
    Greasy drifter? Why are you jumping to assumptions about my appearance? I hitchhiked to church this morning, and luckily Matthew picked me up, a fine man. I don't have a car as I donated my BMW to a needy Syrian immigrant and my Z has its engine pulled and getting rebuilt in California since I spun all the crank bearings when racing at Summit Point without a baffled oil sump. I thought it would be done while I was travelling the Middle East for 5 weeks, but there was a parts problem (rods, bearings, oil sump, seals).

    All I have is subjective experience with hitchhiking around town in the DC metro area. I am positive my experience would be completely different in the NC mountains, where I grew up. One does not discount the generosity of the men of the mountain. My reasonable conclusion is that most suburban Americans are selfish and self absorbed and unwilling to help a fellow American out, when it is exceeding 95 degrees.

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    Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    ...It is a tax. Period, otherwise it is unconstitutional.
    no its a penalty collected as a tax.

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    Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

    If you lie on your tax return you are subject to tax penalties. Therefore, by Republican logic, there is a tax on telling the truth.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    The thread isn't about cars, trucks and dealers. Again, analogies not necessary. Address the topic itself. It's not all that complex. I showed where the Obama admin argued it was a tax in court (posted the transcript). It's also been shown where, at the same time, the POTUS was telling the public it wasn't a tax.

    You - all you have is a weak analogy to prop up your partisan argument.
    Well, if you can't even grasp the analogy about the SUV, how could you grasp the same issue in a legal context?

    Like the car dealer, Obama is talking about taxation in common parlance. It isn't a tax, it is a penalty for failing to get insurance. They're trying to penalize freeloading, not trying to generate revenue, so that is more like what you think of when you hear "fine" than when you hear "tax". Right?

    But the taxation power in the constitution isn't about whether your typical person on the street thinks of something as a tax or a fine. The taxation power gives Congress the ability to do things that you might consider a fine. Like the DMV in my analogy, it is based on technical standards, not just common parlance.

    Furthermore, only one of the nine justices thinks it is authorized by the taxation power, but not the commerce power. And even he didn't even make up his mind about that until two years after the law was passed. Four of the nine justices still, rightly, believe that it is covered under the commerce power and four believe it doesn't even qualify as a tax. Are eight of the justices "lying" and just that one "being honest"?

    Lets try another analogy. Say that I said that pluto was a planet 20 years ago. Was I "lying" because they decided that it was only a "planetoid" recently?
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    You have a strange understanding of personal responsibility. If that is what you truly advocate, then responsibility for your health lies with you. If you cant afford it, you dont get it. But you dont really believe in personal responsibility at all, do you.
    Tell it to Mitt Romney, Dude.

    "With regards to the individual mandate, the individual responsibility program that I proposed, I was very pleased that the compromise between the two houses includes the personal responsibility mandate. That is essential for bringing the health care costs down for everyone and getting everyone the health insurance they need," Romney said.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You just can't see the forest with all of those trees in the way. Under PPACA the added 45 million people's PREMIUMs are paid mostly by the taxpayers (and other SELF-PAYING insured people) and those "poor" people will STILL pay NO out of pocket money, so ALL costs UNDER that (never paid) deductable AND up to the (never paid) max out of pocket limit will STILL be a "public burden".
    And yet, somehow I'm OK with it being a public burden to make sure that people don't die due to lack of health insurance. Amazing, huh?

    As this "guesstimate" shows it will still cost A MINIMUM of $2,500 to $4,500 for each of the MILLIONS added under PPACA, how that can possibly be seen as REDUCING costs is beyond belief.
    Annual health care expenditures in the US are over $7,000 per capita.

    Your link would seem to contradict your previous statement.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    And the name it is called is important because?
    Because it distinguishes between the president lying and the president telling the truth.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    No, you have the power, not the 'right.' There is a big difference. And why is everything about dying on the side of the road with you guys? That is such a dumb argument and a straw man since no one is saying anything of the kind. Try to deal with what I write and not want you wish I had written and we might actually get somewhere.
    LOL The old saying "Might makes right" comes to mind.
    Your not saying it, because it makes you look heartless, but that is where your opinion would lead us to. If it quacks like a duck....

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Then let us make this little tax law change, that we will call the "polution fairness act"; instead of a "hybrid car tax credit", let's add a "no hybrid car tax penalty" instead, of say $1,000, so that the 145 million tax returns, filed by those that do NOT own a hybrid car, can be properly punished for not being "green" enough.
    Why? We already have the hybrid car tax credit, which does functionally the same thing.
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