Page 5 of 122 FirstFirst ... 345671555105 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 1220

Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

  1. #41
    Sage

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Last Seen
    03-18-13 @ 02:59 PM
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    5,544

    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Bans on "cadillac" plans for one thing, by establishing MAXIMUM levels of benefits provided. It also limits the difference in risk based establishment of premiums (removing the use of gender and height/weight, and severly limitting even the use of age), making the young/healthy pay FAR more, and the old/sick pay far less, skewing the actuarial basis for setting premiums.

    This is much like demanding that a guy with 4 DUIs, that has totalled 6 cars in the last 10 years, pay no more for auto insurance than 3x the "base" liability rate, even though their actuarial risk is 50x that "base" risk. When auto insurance companies give female drivers lower rates, based on sound actuarial risks, nobody complains, but when medical care insurance does the SAME THING, assigning higher rates for females or the obese, it is then "unfair".

    It is insane to let people wait until they are sick and THEN buy insurance, or "upgrade" their medical care coverage with NO NEW RISK ASSESMENT. What this does, is a give GREAT deal to the sick, but costs the average person MUCH more for the VERY same care they now get, and lets more people get in the line for it; a clear reduction in the VALUE (quality?) of care.
    Put 30 million more people into the existing health care system without an increase in health care professionals, equipment and facilities and you get rationing of a different kind and magnitude than existing de facto rationing. The circle can't be squared.

    Add to that a bazillion ambulance chasing lawyers whose voraciousness isn't tempered by tort reform, and you get things like drug shortages on a whole new level.

    Many people who have had excellent health care will now have health care which isn't so excellent. They will blame someone. Obamacare will be in effect and in the direct line of causation. They will blame Obamacare.

    There are winners and losers in life. Obamacare is going to have a hand in making some people winners and some people losers. Don't expect the losers to be happy.

  2. #42
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    What was the number for Obamacare that the administration gave to the CBO to score the legislation? Less than $1 trillion. That was the magic number. It was a lie.

    What was the number the CBO came up with later after passage? More than $1.7 trillion.
    First of all, "the administration" doesn't give the CBO any numbers to score. The CBO looks at the legislation on its own and assesses the ten-year cost of the bill. Want to know why the ten-year cost is higher now than it was when the bill was first past? Because it's two years closer to actually being implemented. This was hardly an unforeseen cost of the bill; that's been part of the cost all along. In fact, the financial figures are actually slightly BETTER (although within the margin of error) for the ACA than they were at the time it was passed.

    If the real number had been used instead of a false number Obamacare wouldn't have been revenue neutral
    The CBO confirmed a few months ago that the ACA is still on track to reduce the deficit. And the most recent estimates I've seen indicate that they initially slightly underestimated the deficit reduction.

    in which case the Budget Reconciliation process couldn't have been used.
    As I already mentioned, only a minor part of the act was passed via budget reconciliation. So even if your misinformation about the ACA increasing the deficit were true, all that Congress would need to do was make sure that those minor provisions passed via reconciliation didn't increase the cost of the deficit, rather than the entire bill.

    In which case President Obama would have needed sixty votes to pass the full legislation.
    60 senators did indeed vote for the PPACA, which was signed into law as-is.

    I don't agree. If these matters were just tweaks why did the Senate Democrats bother to tweak these provisions instead of just sending the origninal Senate and House passed legislation directly to President Obama for signature?
    Because that's the agreement that the Senate Democrats made with House Democrats: The House would vote to pass the Senate bill (PPACA) as-is, but in exchange the Senate had to pass the House's minor tweaks via budget reconciliation.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  3. #43
    Sometimes wrong

    ttwtt78640's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Uhland, Texas
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:41 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    34,691

    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    If just because a market is regulated, you no longer consider it to be the private sector, then no private sector has really existed in the first world for many decades. With the possible exception of a handful of industries that periodically move so quickly that it takes government a while to catch up. Usually with devastating consequences like high finance and to some extent, software.
    The policy that I want is a "catastrophic" plan that pays ZERO until I reach $5,000 in annual medical expenses then it pays 100% over that. Is that LEGAL under ObamaCare?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  4. #44
    Sage
    OpportunityCost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:13 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    16,816

    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    The policy that I want is a "catastrophic" plan that pays ZERO until I reach $5,000 in annual medical expenses then it pays 100% over that. Is that LEGAL under ObamaCare?
    Yes. Its not comprehensive enough to pass the rules of the bill. Its one of the exemptions McDonalds got was to allow that sort of plan, which is normally not allowed.

  5. #45
    Sage

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Last Seen
    03-18-13 @ 02:59 PM
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    5,544

    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    There is no way to know if this is true and I seriously doubt it is. I think it's more likely that he believed that overturning Obamacare would have been a form of judicial activism.
    X...the American political culture is a game within a game within a game. The truth of the matter asserted can't be proven in a court of law...but we aren't in a court of law. And we aren't in the court of public opinion generally. We are in the court of conservative opinion. This is all part of the process of delegitimization dictated by the American political culture.

    I know you don't like this. And I agree with you that this is unhealthy for the established order in this country. But the political culture demands that this approach be taken. The left uses the same approach. I didn't make the rules. Conservatives believe Obamacare was enacted based on lies and bad faith. What do you expect conservatives to do?

    Obamacare is going into effect. Obama could very well be reelected. But this doesn't mean that Obamacare will be accepted. The outrage among most conservatives dictates that over the next ten years they will use increased health care costs, decreased quality, and clear rationing to monkey wrench Obamacare. It doesn't matter whether this is good, bad or indifferent. This is the way both sides play the game under the terms of America's existing political culture.

  6. #46
    Sage
    OpportunityCost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:13 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    16,816

    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    The CBO confirmed a few months ago that the ACA is still on track to reduce the deficit. And the most recent estimates I've seen indicate that they initially slightly underestimated the deficit reduction.
    We do not know this as a certainty. The CBO has to rescore the bill under its current guidelines as handed down by SCOTUS. No medicare increases and Ive got to assume no exemptions will be allowed as federal taxes are not able to be exempted without direct legislative action.

    Obamacare: So what happens now? - Right Turn - The Washington Post

    In the next week or so you can expect the Congressional Budget Office to re-score Obamacare. The CLASS Act is gone, as are the two years of ramp-up time that allowed the original 10- year scoring to disguise the extent of the taxes and spending in the bill.
    On a year to year basis its going to run a deficit because of the 2 year funding gimmick. Its also expected to run $700billion more than projected. If you really expect this to lower the deficit, pass some over, Id like a hit.

  7. #47
    Sometimes wrong

    ttwtt78640's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Uhland, Texas
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:41 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    34,691

    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    There is no ban on cadillac plans. They just tax them.



    What does that have to do with the quality of care? That's just about how we want to distribute the costs as a society.

    air"

    Exactly. Hence the need for a mandate.
    Charging more not based on better care/coverage or higher risk but simply because it is "fair" is nonsense, nothing more than income redistribution, using the GUISE of the "private" market to "level the field". Obamacare is simply a tax on the young/healthy to pay for care of the old/obese/sick, and nothing more.

    Instead of doing it directly, like Medicare or Medicaid, where the costs are SEEN they instead use mandates, making it APPEAR that the medical care/insurance industry is simply "raising costs", when all it is doing is shifting costs around. Fooling the sheeple into believing that medical care costs went up, in general, when they did not.

    The mandate means NOTHING if I may by the cheapest possible policy (or pay the fine, if it is less), then AFTER I get sick/injured "upgrade" it to the BEST possible plan (no pre-existing condidtion can be considered), paying very high monthly premiums, ONLY until treatment is completed and then reverting back to the cheapest available plan.

    The average cost for each person covered by Medicaid is INSANE, yet we STILL let the gov't run that and expand it as well: What is the cost per person annually for medicaid
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-29-12 at 09:23 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  8. #48
    Sage

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Last Seen
    03-18-13 @ 02:59 PM
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    5,544

    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    First of all, "the administration" doesn't give the CBO any numbers to score. The CBO looks at the legislation on its own and assesses the ten-year cost of the bill. Want to know why the ten-year cost is higher now than it was when the bill was first past? Because it's two years closer to actually being implemented. This was hardly an unforeseen cost of the bill; that's been part of the cost all along. In fact, the financial figures are actually slightly BETTER (although within the margin of error) for the ACA than they were at the time it was passed.

    The CBO confirmed a few months ago that the ACA is still on track to reduce the deficit. And the most recent estimates I've seen indicate that they initially slightly underestimated the deficit reduction.



    As I already mentioned, only a minor part of the act was passed via budget reconciliation. So even if your misinformation about the ACA increasing the deficit were true, all that Congress would need to do was make sure that those minor provisions passed via reconciliation didn't increase the cost of the deficit, rather than the entire bill.



    60 senators did indeed vote for the PPACA, which was signed into law as-is.



    Because that's the agreement that the Senate Democrats made with House Democrats: The House would vote to pass the Senate bill (PPACA) as-is, but in exchange the Senate had to pass the House's minor tweaks via budget reconciliation.
    Debating you is a wonderful, but laborious process. Fortunately, I'm retired and have plenty of time on my hands. The CBO scores legislation based on the assumptions it is given. The CBO does not look to any info other than the assumptions it is given. There is no independent review. Before passage President Obama sent the bill to the CBO with a set of assumptions that demonstrated it would be revenue neutral.

    After passage the CBO was asked by Republicans to score Obamacare based on new numbers based on subsequent experience. The CBO conclusion was that the original set of numbers were wrong. The number was $1 trillion originally, and became $1.7 trillion subsequently.

    Because of that fact the Budget Reconciliation process was used illegitimately, and what you refer to as tweaks should have been subjected to unlimited debate as the filibuster rules would otherwise require. But there wouldn't have been sixty votes to allow those tweaks. So why bother tweaking as you assert?

    Your real audience is those people you need to persuade so the Democrats can have peace. Those folks are conservatives. Just as George Bush never knew peace after he screwed up, so it shall be in the case of Obamacare. That's the way the system works.

  9. #49
    Sage
    teamosil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    San Francisco
    Last Seen
    05-22-14 @ 12:47 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    6,623

    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    The policy that I want is a "catastrophic" plan that pays ZERO until I reach $5,000 in annual medical expenses then it pays 100% over that. Is that LEGAL under ObamaCare?
    I don't know all the details, but probably not. It's sort of a subspecies of the freeloader problem. People get those kinds of plans and then skimp on preventative care and it ends up creating most costs in the long run.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  10. #50
    Sage

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Last Seen
    03-18-13 @ 02:59 PM
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    5,544

    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid were all enacted on a bipartisan basis. That ensured political peace. Obamacare wasn't enacted on a bipartisan basis. Instead, President Obama put Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid in charge of getting the legislation enacted. They are probably the two most partisan people on earth.

    Why would any one expect conservative reaction to be any different given these circumstances?

Page 5 of 122 FirstFirst ... 345671555105 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •