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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

  1. #441
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy the Kid View Post
    Since the Repub are sending record amounts of money, after learning about the TAX lie, Romney will be able to hammer it home. Ad after ad, after ad. And so will other groups that want to see this boob of a president gone.
    "learning about the tax lie"? lol. Seriously, you think Republicans are that stupid? You think they like heard that this penalty was authorized under the taxation power and thought "gosh, that there 'bama dun said it waadn't no tax! he dun lied!'"? LOL. No, dude, even Republicans aren't that stupid. Obviously the penalty is the same thing as it always was. Nothing changed. What constitutional power authorizes it doesn't somehow change it from a good policy to a bad policy or something. Most constitutional scholars believe it is under the commerce power. Roberts thinks it's only under the taxation power. Obviously a new constitutional limit on the commerce power that the courts just made up the other day doesn't mean everybody who adhered to the previous interepretation of the commerce clause is a "liar"... Seriously man, that angle is just too stupid to even really explain... You need to think harder.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Huh? What does this have to do with anything?



    Good. Most people are not doctors and/or actuaries; they have no idea whether they need to be covered for some specific ailment. People just want to have their medical bills covered, and it isn't right that people rely on their insurance only to discover that treatment for some condition is specifically excluded from coverage on page 53, section 9B of the insurance policy. By mandating what procedures are and aren't covered, it makes it much easier for customers to compare insurance plans on the important factors (e.g. premiums, deductibles, out-of-pocket maximums) and reduces the opportunity for abuse by insurance companies. This is a good thing.



    If you are unwilling to consider cost-effectiveness in determining coverage, then you are part of the problem you are complaining about. It is precisely that attitude that causes medical costs to spiral out of control.



    No. You don't control your gender and height. I'm OK with making weight a factor as long as the premium spread is relatively small...probably less than the 1.5-to-1 spread insurance companies can charge smoking, since weight is not entirely behavioral like smoking is.



    It'll at least cover them for catastrophic coverage, which is better than no insurance at all. And IIRC the maximum annual deductible will be $2,000 for "qualified plans" (i.e. plans eligible to be offered on the health insurance exchanges).



    Poor people actually getting health care...imagine that. The horror, the horror! I love how you frame this criticism in such an accusatory way, like you automatically assume that I would share your revulsion to such an idea.



    So rather than study the cost-effectiveness of procedures and stop funding the wasteful ones, your solution is instead to keep doing as many wasteful procedures as the doctor wants and just letting poor people die. Yep, clearly you're the fiscally responsible one of the two of us.



    What's your point? Medicaid is not directly comparable to private insurance for a variety of reasons. First of all, Medicaid recipients are poorer on average than private insurance recipients, and therefore more likely to be in worse health. Second of all, Medicaid covers some of the really expensive procedures after patients have already been financially ruined by medical bills, whereas private insurance patients covers proportionally more patients who never need health care at all.
    You just can't see the forest with all of those trees in the way. Under PPACA the added 45 million people's PREMIUMs are paid mostly by the taxpayers (and other SELF-PAYING insured people) and those "poor" people will STILL pay NO out of pocket money, so ALL costs UNDER that (never paid) deductable AND up to the (never paid) max out of pocket limit will STILL be a "public burden". The rest is paid TO THE PROVIDER they win, as does the insurance company, since they get their profit from the premiums; but the PUBLIC still loses, even MORE than they do now (simply by the ADDED 20% insurance overhead). As this "guesstimate" shows it will still cost A MINIMUM of $2,500 to $4,500 for each of the MILLIONS added under PPACA, how that can possibly be seen as REDUCING costs is beyond belief.

    Link: How Much Does Health Insurance Cost? The Average Premium for Individual Coverage in 2011 was $183 per month, eHealth Study Finds / eHealth
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  3. #443
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Under PPACA the added 45 million people's PREMIUMs are paid mostly by the taxpayers
    The notion that the US is such an impoverished nation that we need to save money by just letting poor people die in the streets for want of medical care, while countries like Morocco have been providing everybody with medical care for more than 30 years now, is just bizarre.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    "learning about the tax lie"? lol. Seriously, you think Republicans are that stupid? You think they like heard that this penalty was authorized under the taxation power and thought "gosh, that there 'bama dun said it waadn't no tax! he dun lied!'"? LOL. No, dude, even Republicans aren't that stupid. Obviously the penalty is the same thing as it always was. Nothing changed. What constitutional power authorizes it doesn't somehow change it from a good policy to a bad policy or something. Most constitutional scholars believe it is under the commerce power. Roberts thinks it's only under the taxation power. Obviously a new constitutional limit on the commerce power that the courts just made up the other day doesn't mean everybody who adhered to the previous interepretation of the commerce clause is a "liar"... Seriously man, that angle is just too stupid to even really explain... You need to think harder.
    Then let us make this little tax law change, that we will call the "polution fairness act"; instead of a "hybrid car tax credit", let's add a "no hybrid car tax penalty" instead, of say $1,000, so that the 145 million tax returns, filed by those that do NOT own a hybrid car, can be properly punished for not being "green" enough.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  5. #445
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Then let us make this little tax law change, that we will call the "polution fairness act"; instead of a "hybrid car tax credit", let's add a "no hybrid car tax penalty" instead, of say $1,000, so that the 145 million tax returns, filed by those that do NOT own a hybrid car, can be properly punished for not being "green" enough.
    Of course, if we the people and our representatives want to do that, the constitution doesn't stop it. In fact, we already do- we tax gas.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    The notion that the US is such an impoverished nation that we need to save money by just letting poor people die in the streets for want of medical care, while countries like Morocco have been providing everybody with medical care for more than 30 years now, is just bizarre.
    It is FAR cheaper to fly them all to Morocco, first class, than to pay for ONE YEAR of ObamaCare. ;-)
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    It is FAR cheaper to fly them all to Morocco, first class, than to pay for ONE YEAR of ObamaCare. ;-)
    And why do you think that is that Morocco is doing so much better keeping the costs of medical care down? From what I can tell, it is because they have a single payer system.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    And why do you think that is that Morocco is doing so much better keeping the costs of medical care down? From what I can tell, it is because they have a single payer system.
    Check the cost of doctors and hospitals, even you might find a clue.

  9. #449
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    "learning about the tax lie"? lol. Seriously, you think Republicans are that stupid? You think they like heard that this penalty was authorized under the taxation power and thought "gosh, that there 'bama dun said it waadn't no tax! he dun lied!'"? LOL. No, dude, even Republicans aren't that stupid. Obviously the penalty is the same thing as it always was. Nothing changed. What constitutional power authorizes it doesn't somehow change it from a good policy to a bad policy or something. Most constitutional scholars believe it is under the commerce power. Roberts thinks it's only under the taxation power. Obviously a new constitutional limit on the commerce power that the courts just made up the other day doesn't mean everybody who adhered to the previous interepretation of the commerce clause is a "liar"... Seriously man, that angle is just too stupid to even really explain... You need to think harder.
    You're repeating the same old debunked point. Obama's team ARGUED it was a tax at the SCOTUS all while he was telling the people it wasn't a tax. I showed that some time back in this thread with transcripts from the court. So yes, that makes him a liar. Seriously.

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    Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

    The Supreme Court decision made it official -- the health care mandate is a tax. That is a characterization one Senator says would have doomed its passage had it been known at the time.

    "There would not have been ten votes for the legislation," South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham said. "Nobody would have wanted to have gone home and say, 'I just increased your taxes by billions of dollars over the next 10 years to fix health care.'

    snip

    President Obama sold those tax increases by promising they would not hit most people.


    "If your family earns less than $250,000 a year, you will not see your taxes increased a single dime," the President told a joint session of Congress in 2009.


    Many of the taxes and penalties, however, will hit the middle class and below, such as the penalties on those who do not buy insurance.




    Read more: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say | Fox News
    In watching the Sunday shows this morning I see a lot of fancy dancing by demo's on these shows...One thing strikes me as not only expected, but just as slimy, and underhanded as we've come to expect out of these demo's today....And that is that even though the opinion of the SCOTUS is clear, that the law is a tax, and a huge one, they are all over trying to paint this as not what CJ Roberts, and the majority opinion said it was in order to make it stand.

    So, tell us demo's, now that it is classified as a tax in order to be constitutional, isn't Obama caught in the same lie that did in Geo. H.W. Bush....The "read my lips.." gambit? And how does he prevail now that he is being uncovered as the biggest taxer, and spender we've ever had in office?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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