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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    I see these separate categories but differently than you. There will be the ones who can afford private insurance/copays/high out of pocket and ‘others’ (subsidized exchange/Medicare/Medicaid). Those in the first group are going to receive premium care as the medical professionals can afford to practice with them being consumers. Those in the latter class will receive just sufficient care as that is what their participation will afford. Where will this ultimately go? One conspiracy theory is full blown socialized medicine with medical professionals being government employees…but I don’t see this as the motivations for those to endure medical school/internship will be lessened.
    The thing is, upper middle class people are already at the taxing cap. They are going to see their health care costs go up by 40% the first time their premiums go up. A lot more lower middle class people are suddenly finding companies willing to drop coverage than deal with the paperwork and forward a penalty. I expect to see more and more dumped off and more and more taxed. Its already moving that direction in just 3 years. In 10, I think it will be apparent what has occurred if the law is allowed to stand as is.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Such a drama queen lol. The part the court is treating as a tax is just the fine you pay if you can afford insurance, but refuse to get it.... Which like virtually nobody will actually be affected by in any way.
    Its also the fine companies pay if they dont want to provide insurance, which will affect millions.

  3. #433
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Its also the fine companies pay if they dont want to provide insurance, which will affect millions.
    No, that is clearly under the commerce clause, not a tax. We already have tons of requirements about benefits packages and whatnot. Nothing new there. This whole silly hypothetical issue about inaction doesn't apply there, since employers are doing something- employing people.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  4. #434
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Its also the fine companies pay if they dont want to provide insurance, which will affect millions.
    Absolutely.

    Companies will drop insurance for their employees because it will save them money in the long run.

    Romney needs to hammer this home.

  5. #435
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    First, let's look at one other FACT not much discussed about PPACA, that the unions got "waivers" for ("cadillac" plans).
    Huh? What does this have to do with anything?

    PPACA turned ALL of the "private" medical care insurance into the "public option" since ALL "private" insurance has a MANDATED benefit list including minimum AND maximum (what must be covered AND what may not be covered) under ANY legal insurance policy, the real mission of the IPAB.
    Good. Most people are not doctors and/or actuaries; they have no idea whether they need to be covered for some specific ailment. People just want to have their medical bills covered, and it isn't right that people rely on their insurance only to discover that treatment for some condition is specifically excluded from coverage on page 53, section 9B of the insurance policy. By mandating what procedures are and aren't covered, it makes it much easier for customers to compare insurance plans on the important factors (e.g. premiums, deductibles, out-of-pocket maximums) and reduces the opportunity for abuse by insurance companies. This is a good thing.

    The IPAB will indeed pick and choose what INSURANCE may pay for, and WORST OF ALL, not as you have implied; you state the choice will be made between treatment ontions A, B and C and the most "cost effective" will be allowed, yet leave out the OBVIOUS fact that "none of the above" will ALWAYS be an option. If procedure A costs $100K and "saves" 4 of 10, procedure B costs $10K and "saves" 2 of 10 and procedure C costs $200K and saves 6 of 10; then which is the most cost effective?
    If you are unwilling to consider cost-effectiveness in determining coverage, then you are part of the problem you are complaining about. It is precisely that attitude that causes medical costs to spiral out of control.

    The "easily digestable" number of variables SHOULD include gender an height/weight, as they are MAJOR factors in assessing cost risk for medical care insurance, just as age and smoking are. Hmm...
    No. You don't control your gender and height. I'm OK with making weight a factor as long as the premium spread is relatively small...probably less than the 1.5-to-1 spread insurance companies can charge smoking, since weight is not entirely behavioral like smoking is.

    If I give a "poor" person AFFORDABLE medical care insurance that has a $2,500 annual deductable, how much MORE care is that giving them?
    It'll at least cover them for catastrophic coverage, which is better than no insurance at all. And IIRC the maximum annual deductible will be $2,000 for "qualified plans" (i.e. plans eligible to be offered on the health insurance exchanges).

    This is a SCAM to be "tweaked" into FREE care for the "poor" paid for by the non-poor, and YOU know it.
    Poor people actually getting health care...imagine that. The horror, the horror! I love how you frame this criticism in such an accusatory way, like you automatically assume that I would share your revulsion to such an idea.

    Many NON-EMERGENCY things are now going to be FREE, only in the sense that the PATIENT does not pay for them, but NOT "free" at all when it comes to the REAL costs of medical care given; even a moron KNOWS that you can not add 10% more people and make costs go down, especially when 8 out of those 10 are not paying their own costs.
    So rather than study the cost-effectiveness of procedures and stop funding the wasteful ones, your solution is instead to keep doing as many wasteful procedures as the doctor wants and just letting poor people die. Yep, clearly you're the fiscally responsible one of the two of us.

    Look at REAL costs WITHOUT any private insurance (20%) overhead: What is the cost per person annually for medicaid
    What's your point? Medicaid is not directly comparable to private insurance for a variety of reasons. First of all, Medicaid recipients are poorer on average than private insurance recipients, and therefore more likely to be in worse health. Second of all, Medicaid covers some of the really expensive procedures after patients have already been financially ruined by medical bills, whereas private insurance patients covers proportionally more patients who never need health care at all.
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  6. #436
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No, that is clearly under the commerce clause, not a tax. We already have tons of requirements about benefits packages and whatnot. Nothing new there. This whole silly hypothetical issue about inaction doesn't apply there, since employers are doing something- employing people.
    What? Let's look at a McJob, as an example. The employer (independent franchise) now has 50 employees, with NO insurance, so they pay ZERO in medcial care benefit cost, under ObamaCare they pay an ADDED $40K fine for "no insurance benefits" offered. Do you NOT think that a McBurger (and all other menu items) will then simply cost a dime more, to cover that added employer cost?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    He ran very heavily on not raising taxes on the middle class and those earning under 250k. By heavily, I mean most of his stump speeches touched on this idea.
    OK. We will see if it has any effect on his election.

    He is now responsible for the single greatest tax increase on the middle and lower class of anyone, anywhere, any time.
    Do you realize that when the Republican talking points brand every policy they dislike as "the greatest tax increase in history" (examples: ACA, economic stimulus bill, the possibility that the Bush tax cuts would expire, etc) then that phrase loses its meaning, and people just start rolling their eyes?

    No wonder they are running from calling it a tax. You can't play both sides of the fence on that categorization either---the basis on which it was upheld and argued by the White House was to call it a tax because the mandate was declared illegal as the basis to regulate commerce; but you can tax it.
    The Supreme Court says it's a tax for legal purposes (and of course it's also a tax as far as its economic impact is concerned). Politicians can call it anything they like for PR reasons, and the voters will render a verdict. In any case, I'm not really interested in arguing the semantics about whether it's a "tax" or a "penalty." Either is fine with me. I'm more interested in the substance of the law.

    Im personally worried about the idea that government would be constrained by backlash from passing new legislation taxing the absence of commerce. Its frightening to think of how much they could tax with that as a principle idea.
    You must have never looked at our tax code if you think that this is a new idea.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-01-12 at 11:40 AM.
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  8. #438
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    What? Let's look at a McJob, as an example. The employer (independent franchise) now has 50 employees, with NO insurance, so they pay ZERO in medcial care benefit cost, under ObamaCare they pay an ADDED $40K fine for "no insurance benefits" offered. Do you NOT think that a McBurger (and all other menu items) will then simply cost a dime more, to cover that added employer cost?
    I have no idea how you think that is relevant to whether Congress is authorized to do it by the commerce power or the taxing power.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  9. #439
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    He was mostly bashed by other Republicans. Democrats aren't as enamored with Grover Norquist and the no-new-taxes mantra in the first place, so we are more inclined to not care that much about it anyway.



    Go for it, bash him all you like. Get it out of your system. Feel better now?

    Place a bet that I will.

    But better yet I'm sending money to Romeny's campaign and to every org that I possible can to insure as many ads as possible continue the message. He lied or best case he didn't read the bill like Pelosi. Either is totally unacceptable.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by PerfectStorm View Post
    Absolutely.

    Companies will drop insurance for their employees because it will save them money in the long run.

    Romney needs to hammer this home.


    Since the Repub are sending record amounts of money, after learning about the TAX lie, Romney will be able to hammer it home. Ad after ad, after ad. And so will other groups that want to see this boob of a president gone.

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