Page 43 of 122 FirstFirst ... 3341424344455393 ... LastLast
Results 421 to 430 of 1220

Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

  1. #421
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    It was sufficient to pass it but not repeal it?

    See below. Very little of the law was passed using reconciliation...just a few minor tweaks. PPACA, which has the meat of the law, passed with 60 votes in the Senate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The sequence of events was like this:

    December 24, 2009 - The Senate passes the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) on a vote of 60-39. PPACA contains all of the major provisions we now associate with "Obamacare" (e.g. individual mandate, Medicaid expansion, ban on preexisting conditions, end of lifetime maximums, health insurance exchanges, subsidies and taxes, Independent Payment Advisory Board, ban on rescission, restrictions on price discrimination).

    January 19, 2010 - Scott Brown is elected to the Senate.
    February 4, 2010 - Scott Brown takes office, reducing the number of Democratic senators to 59.

    March 21, 2010 - PPACA passes the House of Representatives, as-is, on a vote of 219-212, and heads to the White House to be signed into law.
    March 21, 2010 - The Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010 (HCERA) passes the House of Representatives on a vote of 220-211. This bill made some tweaks to the dollar amounts and timetables in PPACA.

    March 23, 2010 - President Obama signs PPACA into law.

    March 25, 2010 - A slightly modified version of HCERA passes the Senate under budget reconciliation rules, by a vote of 56-43.
    March 25, 2010 - The modified version of HCERA passes the House, by a vote of 220-207.

    March 30, 2010 - President Obama signs HCERA into law.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  2. #422
    Sometimes wrong

    ttwtt78640's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Uhland, Texas
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:51 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    34,600

    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    With all of the talk of the wonders of PPACA law(s) and how ACCESS will be improved (i.e. 30 million will be added to the rolls of the "insured") nobody has explained HOW that could possibly reduce costs, the stated GOAL of the law. Everyone seems to agree that medical care insurance is simply a FOR PROFIT third party in the "system" that gives no care at all, yet does add costs (the ACCEPTABLE limits on these costs are stated in PPACA as 20%). All discussion seems to be about "fairness", "compassion" and "insurance", while NO talk of the REAL cost of U.S. medical care (1/6 of our economy) is EVER mentioned. Hmm....
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  3. #423
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy the Kid View Post
    Obama lied - pure and simple. For all the Dems out there a question . . . . . . who said: "Read my lips, NO NEW TAXES!" How many times was GB the elder bashed with that comment?
    He was mostly bashed by other Republicans. Democrats aren't as enamored with Grover Norquist and the no-new-taxes mantra in the first place, so we are more inclined to not care that much about it anyway.

    The Repubs have every right to bash President Obama and the rest of the Dems with this lie IMO.
    Go for it, bash him all you like. Get it out of your system. Feel better now?
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  4. #424
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    With all of the talk of the wonders of PPACA law(s) and how ACCESS will be improved (i.e. 30 million will be added to the rolls of the "insured") nobody has explained HOW that could possibly reduce costs, the stated GOAL of the law. Everyone seems to agree that medical care insurance is simply a FOR PROFIT third party in the "system" that gives no care at all, yet does add costs (the ACCEPTABLE limits on these costs are stated in PPACA as 20%). All discussion seems to be about "fairness", "compassion" and "insurance", while NO talk of the REAL cost of U.S. medical care (1/6 of our economy) is EVER mentioned. Hmm....
    We have an Independent Payment Advisory Board to study which medical procedures are cost-effective and which are useless; this data will then be used to encourage greater use of the effective procedures and lesser use of the ineffective ones. Furthermore, we will have health insurance exchanges where insurance companies can compete with one another on an easily-digestible number of variables, which will allow fair comparisons among potential customers and bend the cost curve down through simple supply and demand.

    Furthermore, I would suggest that if people are covered with health insurance, they'll be more likely to go to the doctor BEFORE they have a major expense, which will save money in the long run.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  5. #425
    Sometimes wrong

    ttwtt78640's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Uhland, Texas
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:51 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    34,600

    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    See below. Very little of the law was passed using reconciliation...just a few minor tweaks. PPACA, which has the meat of the law, passed with 60 votes in the Senate.
    So, if that vote were held TODAY it would not pass. We all agree that it squeaked by "just in time" and is still being written. Is it not VERY curious why the law needed to be passed URGENTLY in 2009, when it takes effect MOSTLY from 2014 to 2018? Much of this law is simply about federal insurance PRICE control (mainly about "sharing" those costs), and very little about any REAL changes to medical care.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  6. #426
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    So, if that vote were held TODAY it would not pass.
    So what? Our system of government does not toss out every law on the books every time a new Congress is elected. It reminds me of a story from shortly after the 1968 presidential election...a reporter was talking to President-Elect Nixon and asked him his thoughts on a poll which showed that if the election were held today, Nixon would lose to Humphrey. Nixon snarled, "I knew what day the god damn election was."

    We all agree that it squeaked by "just in time" and is still being written. Is it not VERY curious why the law needed to be passed URGENTLY in 2009, when it takes effect MOSTLY from 2014 to 2018?
    It gives the states and the federal government time to prepare. And considering how much the Republican governors are dragging their feet on implementing the health insurance exchanges, it's no wonder.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-01-12 at 10:19 AM.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  7. #427
    Sometimes wrong

    ttwtt78640's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Uhland, Texas
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:51 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    34,600

    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    We have an Independent Payment Advisory Board to study which medical procedures are cost-effective and which are useless; this data will then be used to encourage greater use of the effective procedures and lesser use of the ineffective ones. Furthermore, we will have health insurance exchanges where insurance companies can compete with one another on an easily-digestible number of variables, which will allow fair comparisons among potential customers and bend the cost curve down through simple supply and demand.

    Furthermore, I would suggest that if people are covered with health insurance, they'll be more likely to go to the doctor BEFORE they have a major expense, which will save money in the long run.

    First, let's look at one other FACT not much discussed about PPACA, that the unions got "waivers" for ("cadillac" plans). PPACA turned ALL of the "private" medical care insurance into the "public option" since ALL "private" insurance has a MANDATED benefit list including minimum AND maximum (what must be covered AND what may not be covered) under ANY legal insurance policy, the real mission of the IPAB.

    The IPAB will indeed pick and choose what INSURANCE may pay for, and WORST OF ALL, not as you have implied; you state the choice will be made between treatment ontions A, B and C and the most "cost effective" will be allowed, yet leave out the OBVIOUS fact that "none of the above" will ALWAYS be an option. If procedure A costs $100K and "saves" 4 of 10, procedure B costs $10K and "saves" 2 of 10 and procedure C costs $200K and saves 6 of 10; then which is the most cost effective?

    The "easily digestable" number of variables SHOULD include gender an height/weight, as they are MAJOR factors in assessing cost risk for medical care insurance, just as age and smoking are. Hmm...

    If I give a "poor" person AFFORDABLE medical care insurance that has a $2,500 annual deductable, how much MORE care is that giving them? This is a SCAM to be "tweaked" into FREE care for the "poor" paid for by the non-poor, and YOU know it. Many NON-EMERGENCY things are now going to be FREE, only in the sense that the PATIENT does not pay for them, but NOT "free" at all when it comes to the REAL costs of medical care given; even a moron KNOWS that you can not add 10% more people and make costs go down, especially when 8 out of those 10 are not paying their own costs.

    Look at REAL costs WITHOUT any private insurance (20%) overhead: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_th...y_for_medicaid
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 07-01-12 at 10:51 AM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  8. #428
    Sage

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Last Seen
    07-25-17 @ 12:35 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    5,878

    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    What the AHCA is going to do is separate people into 2 categories, those that are subsidized and those that are taxed for their healthcare.
    I see these separate categories but differently than you. There will be the ones who can afford private insurance/copays/high out of pocket and ‘others’ (subsidized exchange/Medicare/Medicaid). Those in the first group are going to receive premium care as the medical professionals can afford to practice with them being consumers. Those in the latter class will receive just sufficient care as that is what their participation will afford. Where will this ultimately go? One conspiracy theory is full blown socialized medicine with medical professionals being government employees…but I don’t see this as the motivations for those to endure medical school/internship will be lessened.

  9. #429
    Sage
    OpportunityCost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:49 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    16,744

    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    He was mostly bashed by other Republicans. Democrats aren't as enamored with Grover Norquist and the no-new-taxes mantra in the first place, so we are more inclined to not care that much about it anyway.

    Go for it, bash him all you like. Get it out of your system. Feel better now?
    He ran very heavily on not raising taxes on the middle class and those earning under 250k. By heavily, I mean most of his stump speeches touched on this idea.

    He is now responsible for the single greatest tax increase on the middle and lower class of anyone, anywhere, any time. No wonder they are running from calling it a tax. You can't play both sides of the fence on that categorization either---the basis on which it was upheld and argued by the White House was to call it a tax because the mandate was declared illegal as the basis to regulate commerce; but you can tax it.

    Im personally worried about the idea that government would be constrained by backlash from passing new legislation taxing the absence of commerce. Its frightening to think of how much they could tax with that as a principle idea.

  10. #430
    Sage
    teamosil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    San Francisco
    Last Seen
    05-22-14 @ 12:47 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    6,623

    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy the Kid View Post
    I don't care how you want to dress this pig up, it's a TAX.

    I guess Pelosi's "We're gonna have to read it to know what's in it" was true. Guess what we have found out? It's a TAX. Obama never, ever, once told the general public this HC bill was a TAX. And, I might add, not just on the "rich". Every person that pays taxes will pay for this HC bill.

    Obama lied - pure and simple. For all the Dems out there a question . . . . . . who said: "Read my lips, NO NEW TAXES!" How many times was GB the elder bashed with that comment?

    The Repubs have every right to bash President Obama and the rest of the Dems with this lie IMO.
    Such a drama queen lol. The part the court is treating as a tax is just the fine you pay if you can afford insurance, but refuse to get it.... Which like virtually nobody will actually be affected by in any way.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

Page 43 of 122 FirstFirst ... 3341424344455393 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •