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SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

I don't think the new Obamacare taxes will be sufficient to cover the explosion in access. The result will be a vastly increased deficit. That will kill any economic recovery.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Read the bill, as suggested by Nancy Pelosi.

okay, you can't prove your statement that union employees with a cadillac health plan are exempt from taxation. which tells us you were making crap up
thanks for the clarification
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2


"The Crossroads GPS ad simply ignores these very real tax cuts — and points to the health care law instead. To back up the claim that 18 taxes are being raised, the ad cites on screen an analysis by the conservative Heritage Foundation.

But of the $503 billion in taxes listed by the Heritage document, $210 billion falls specifically on individuals making more than $200,000 a year, or couples making over $250,000. And we count another $190 billion that falls only on businesses, including corporations in general, or in particular on health insurance companies, pharmaceutical manufacturers and importers, makers of medical devices and even producers of biofuels.

To be sure, some unknown portion of the taxes that fall directly on individuals would be paid by persons who are below Obama’s promised threshold. For example, a 10 percent tax on indoor tanning services went into effect in 2010.

But several taxes would affect only persons with income high enough to claim itemized deductions on their federal income tax returns. For example, $15 billion is to come from limiting deductions for medical expenses to the amount exceeding 10 percent of adjusted gross income (up from 7.5 percent currently). That doesn’t go into effect until 2013, and is the largest tax increase that applies only to individuals. And high-income persons are far more likely to itemize than low-income or middle-income persons, so much if not most of the $15 billion will be paid by those not covered by Obama’s promise.

Another $13 billion would come from limiting the amount of money that can be put into tax-advantaged flexible spending accounts to $2,500 a year. That won’t take effect until 2013, and of course would affect only those with enough income to set aside thousands of dollars in such accounts.

Although not mentioned by the ad, Obama also signed legislation in February 2009 that raised tobacco taxes, which are regressive taxes that fall more heavily on low-income smokers. The bill raised the federal tax on a pack of cigarettes by 61 cents to $1 per pack to pay for an expansion of the Children’s Health Insurance Program.

Mandate = Tax Increase?

The Heritage tax figure includes $65 billion that comes from penalties to be paid by larger businesses that choose not to offer coverage for workers, and by individuals who don’t meet the law’s mandate to obtain coverage. The law doesn’t label those penalties a tax, and the president has argued that the individual penalties are “absolutely not a tax increase,” and therefore don’t break his promise. But that’s a matter of opinion. In fact, the administration’s lawyers argued before the Supreme Court that the mandate penalties are taxes, and the justices have yet to decide that legal point. So for now, we’ll leave it to our readers to judge whether those penalties would violate Obama’s promise on taxes.

What we can say is that the $65 billion in penalties would fall mostly on businesses, not individuals. And they don’t take effect until 2014.

Heritage didn’t attempt to break down the $65 billion figure, so we contacted the paper’s author, Curtis Dubay, who told us via email that he drew the figure from a Congressional Budget Office estimate from March 20, 2010. The figure for “Penalty Payments by Employers and Uninsured Individuals” appears in Table 2.

But how much of that is from individuals? We found the answer in Table 4 — $17 billion. Or about $4 billion a year once fully phased in.

That estimate was too low. In fairness to Crossroads GPS and Heritage, we must note that the CBO has since increased its estimate and figures that in 2019 — the last year covered by the original estimate — individuals will pay $7 billion in penalties, not $4 billion. And CBO now figures that would rise to $9 billion in 2022.

But that’s a tiny future increase compared with the tax cuts Obama has already delivered, including an estimated $120 billion in 2012 alone from the 2 percentage point cut in payroll taxes. And so we judge the Crossroads claim that this promise was broken to be mostly false, and its use of a $503 billion figure that is mostly to be paid by businesses and high-income individuals to be simply dishonest.

Footnote: We are still researching the other claims in this ad and will address them at a later time in a separate posting."

FactCheck.org : A Bogus Tax Attack Against Obama
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

okay, you can't prove your statement that union employees with a cadillac health plan are exempt from taxation. which tells us you were making crap up
thanks for the clarification


No your in the group that hasn't read the bill, so read it. Don't rely on others to do your footwork. Not only will you be better off, you'll find out this bill is a TAX.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Bronson already answered you. Thus your link is debunked.

Good job Gimmie.
LOL....so Billy, are you going to realize a profit of over $250K on your sale?

If not, you need not worry, this won't affect you.

If it does......sniff....I'm so sorry...sniff....really sorry....sniff.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

LOL....so Billy, are you going to realize a profit of over $250K on your sale?

If not, you need not worry, this won't affect you.

If it does......sniff....I'm so sorry...sniff....really sorry....sniff.



:lamo

Like I'm going to give out any personal info on the World Wide Web.


:lamo


But please, Gimmie, don't let me stop you from doing so. :mrgreen:
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

No your in the group that hasn't read the bill, so read it. Don't rely on others to do your footwork. Not only will you be better off, you'll find out this bill is a TAX.

no, you are part of the group that make specious comments without any legitimate basis
you have again been exposed
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

"The Crossroads GPS ad simply ignores these very real tax cuts — and points to the health care law instead. To back up the claim that 18 taxes are being raised, the ad cites on screen an analysis by the conservative Heritage Foundation.

But of the $503 billion in taxes listed by the Heritage document, $210 billion falls specifically on individuals making more than $200,000 a year, or couples making over $250,000. And we count another $190 billion that falls only on businesses, including corporations in general, or in particular on health insurance companies, pharmaceutical manufacturers and importers, makers of medical devices and even producers of biofuels.

To be sure, some unknown portion of the taxes that fall directly on individuals would be paid by persons who are below Obama’s promised threshold. For example, a 10 percent tax on indoor tanning services went into effect in 2010.

But several taxes would affect only persons with income high enough to claim itemized deductions on their federal income tax returns. For example, $15 billion is to come from limiting deductions for medical expenses to the amount exceeding 10 percent of adjusted gross income (up from 7.5 percent currently). That doesn’t go into effect until 2013, and is the largest tax increase that applies only to individuals. And high-income persons are far more likely to itemize than low-income or middle-income persons, so much if not most of the $15 billion will be paid by those not covered by Obama’s promise.

Another $13 billion would come from limiting the amount of money that can be put into tax-advantaged flexible spending accounts to $2,500 a year. That won’t take effect until 2013, and of course would affect only those with enough income to set aside thousands of dollars in such accounts.

Although not mentioned by the ad, Obama also signed legislation in February 2009 that raised tobacco taxes, which are regressive taxes that fall more heavily on low-income smokers. The bill raised the federal tax on a pack of cigarettes by 61 cents to $1 per pack to pay for an expansion of the Children’s Health Insurance Program.

Mandate = Tax Increase?

The Heritage tax figure includes $65 billion that comes from penalties to be paid by larger businesses that choose not to offer coverage for workers, and by individuals who don’t meet the law’s mandate to obtain coverage. The law doesn’t label those penalties a tax, and the president has argued that the individual penalties are “absolutely not a tax increase,” and therefore don’t break his promise. But that’s a matter of opinion. In fact, the administration’s lawyers argued before the Supreme Court that the mandate penalties are taxes, and the justices have yet to decide that legal point. So for now, we’ll leave it to our readers to judge whether those penalties would violate Obama’s promise on taxes.

What we can say is that the $65 billion in penalties would fall mostly on businesses, not individuals. And they don’t take effect until 2014.

Heritage didn’t attempt to break down the $65 billion figure, so we contacted the paper’s author, Curtis Dubay, who told us via email that he drew the figure from a Congressional Budget Office estimate from March 20, 2010. The figure for “Penalty Payments by Employers and Uninsured Individuals” appears in Table 2.

But how much of that is from individuals? We found the answer in Table 4 — $17 billion. Or about $4 billion a year once fully phased in.

That estimate was too low. In fairness to Crossroads GPS and Heritage, we must note that the CBO has since increased its estimate and figures that in 2019 — the last year covered by the original estimate — individuals will pay $7 billion in penalties, not $4 billion. And CBO now figures that would rise to $9 billion in 2022.

But that’s a tiny future increase compared with the tax cuts Obama has already delivered, including an estimated $120 billion in 2012 alone from the 2 percentage point cut in payroll taxes. And so we judge the Crossroads claim that this promise was broken to be mostly false, and its use of a $503 billion figure that is mostly to be paid by businesses and high-income individuals to be simply dishonest.

Footnote: We are still researching the other claims in this ad and will address them at a later time in a separate posting."

FactCheck.org : A Bogus Tax Attack Against Obama

The ever present and moronic argument used by Obama and the left is that taxes on "rich people", corporations and businesses are not going to affect the "little guy". This is the great lie of the left used to fool people, just as it did you. FACT is that taxation of those that produce goods or provide services (simply viewed as an added business cost) WILL BE passed on as increased prices for those goods and services, thus PAID FOR by all. The poor spend a much larger proportion of their income on goods and services, than the rich, therefore they are hit by this hidden and invisable tax called INFLATION, the cruelest and most regressive form of taxation imaginable.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

no, you are part of the group that make specious comments without any legitimate basis
you have again been exposed

Right. :mrgreen:

Did you start reading the Obamacare bill yet?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

:lamo

Like I'm going to give out any personal info on the World Wide Web.


:lamo


But please, Gimmie, don't let me stop you from doing so. :mrgreen:
LOL....your claim was that YOU would be taxed on the sale of your home, I showed you probably won't be.....and your defense is NOW to say you don't want to talk about your private life?


Whatever Billy, self contradiction is your MO lately.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

The ever present and moronic argument used by Obama and the left is that taxes on "rich people", corporations and businesses are not going to affect the "little guy". This is the great lie of the left used to fool people, just as it did you. FACT is that taxation of those that produce goods or provide services (simply viewed as an added business cost) WILL BE passed on as increased prices for those goods and services, thus PAID FOR by all. The poor spend a much larger proportion of their income on goods and services, than the rich, therefore they are hit by this hidden and invisable tax called INFLATION, the cruelest and most regressive form of taxation imaginable.
That argument only applies to business, and the amount of the taxation to business is small in relation to the total economy along with the fact that the cost to consumers is spread out over a very wide area and time frame. Don't like the tax on tanning salons? Go outside and get a tan. Don't like the hike on cigarettes? Stop smoking. The direct effects of these increases are very small and are more than offset by the cost controls, increases in the size of insurance pools, etc.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

You realize you attempting to get the Dems up to snuff is a waste of your time. But I give you credit for trying.


I heard this morning on the local news that 40+% of US citizens didn't know the HC bill had been ruled on as of yesterday. Sad indictment on the public, IMO.

It is amazing that for every FACT that you provide they have a spin that makes it OK, usually that it will effect only a "rich guy", corporation or business, as if those folks don't just pass along the costs of all taxes, fees and regulations as increased prices for the goods and services that they provide, sticking those at the bottom, consumers, with the REAL cost of all taxation. Fools on the left can never see this simple truth; the more that the gov't takes the less the little guy has UNLESS the gov't gives them some back. The goal of the left, in a democratic republic, is to have more tax benefit getting voters than tax payers, after that, the game of democracy is over.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

I would love to believe this Dem HC plan is gonna be all "great and wonderul", but I can't. Those taxpapers who pay the bills, 52%, will eventually have to pay for those 30-40+ million people who don't have healthcare. It can't happen any other way. We are always sold with "this is going to fix the problem", but it never happens. It always, always falls on the backs of the middle class and so will this crap bill.

They are paying for them now, before reform. I don't think this is wonderful, but keeping the status quo, where we're not only paying, but paying a lot, doesn't seem like something those worrying about paying for others should want to go back to.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

The only myth being tossed around this thread is the whopper by liberals claiming that Obamacare isn't a tax.

Better let the mittens campaign in on the news, their still calling it a penalty.:mrgreen:

<A senior adviser to Mitt Romney appeared to undercut a central argument Republicans hope to use between now and the November election against President Obama — that although his signature health care reform law may be constitutional, it amounts to a tax.>

Romney Campaign Calls Obamacare A Penalty Not A Tax - ABC News
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Better let the mittens campaign in on the news, their still calling it a penalty.:mrgreen:

<A senior adviser to Mitt Romney appeared to undercut a central argument Republicans hope to use between now and the November election against President Obama — that although his signature health care reform law may be constitutional, it amounts to a tax.>

Romney Campaign Calls Obamacare A Penalty Not A Tax - ABC News

LOL. They haven't updated his teleprompter yet. ;-)
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

I think the way to deal with Obamacare is to overwhelm it with increased costs for the federal govt. through states opting out. That forces the federal govt. to step in and the federal budget skyrockets.

Maybe it would have been a better idea for President Obama to have proceeded incrementally.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Did you know that Chief Justice Roberts only agreed with the decision because Obama threatened his children?

ToBeRight

How could John Roberts side with the liberals? The individual mandate is so clearly unconstitutional – even to a layperson – how could it be?

Kind of like a Vince Flynn book. Someone got to Roberts. I bet they got to him and told him he has to vote this way or members of his family – kids, wife, parents, whoever – were going to be killed.

Later this afternoon, it’s going to come out that Roberts was coerced. A Secret Service agent overheard Obama and Axelrod discussing the Roberts blackmail. He managed to get them on tape discussing it. Later this afternoon, the whole story will come out, Roberts will issue his REAL opinion, and Obama and Axelrod will be taken away in handcuffs.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

I think Obamacare is just the beginning of the transformation of America.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

That argument only applies to business, and the amount of the taxation to business is small in relation to the total economy along with the fact that the cost to consumers is spread out over a very wide area and time frame. Don't like the tax on tanning salons? Go outside and get a tan. Don't like the hike on cigarettes? Stop smoking. The direct effects of these increases are very small and are more than offset by the cost controls, increases in the size of insurance pools, etc.

Everything I keep reading only highlights that mostly, if not all, of the cost controlling measures are questionable in their effectiveness. Here's a piece trudy Lieberman did while the bill was still being debated in congress


Yes, Virginia, There Really Are Cost Controls : CJR
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

LOL....and Grover Norquist is the perfect example of fair and balanced.

Yahoo news isn't fair and balanced? :lol:

Facts are facts. I'm sorry it hurts your feelings that people are exposing the truth about this fraud of a bill that rammed down the throats of the American Public against their will with shady reconciliation tactics. Next you'll be whining that Obamacare is about "Free HC for all" or some other such emotional nonsense.

Obamacare is filled with 20 new taxes. It wasn't sold as a massive tax increase. You support passing legislation through deception? It's a bloated Big Government mess that is an absolute disaster. I love how hope and change junkies like you are trying to have the debate again that Obamacare is "deficit neutral", not filled with massive tax increases on the poor and middle class, and isn't a massive grab for more Centralized Power. You lost that debate back in 2010.

Are you claiming that any source you use is going to be unbiased? Let's stop with the pretentious nonsense. You've been bleeting Ezra Klein and Daily Kos talking points all week.
 
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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

You realize that the 2018 cut-in date for the Cadillac tax applies to EVERYONE who has a Cadillac policy, right? Not just union members? Just checking....

don't confuse them with facts
 
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