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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

  1. #31
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    The country could have had a public option without destroying the quality of health care for tens of millions of people who had good existing coverage. It wasn't necessary to poison the well.
    Not sure what you mean. How does anything in the ACA reduce the quality of care for anybody?
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Notice that I put my comment in the form of a leading question, and not in the form of an assertion.

    What date was Scott Brown sworn into the Senate, and what date did Obamacare pass through the Reconcilation process?
    The sequence of events was like this:

    December 24, 2009 - The Senate passes the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) on a vote of 60-39. PPACA contains all of the major provisions we now associate with "Obamacare" (e.g. individual mandate, Medicaid expansion, ban on preexisting conditions, end of lifetime maximums, health insurance exchanges, subsidies and taxes, Independent Payment Advisory Board, ban on rescission, restrictions on price discrimination).

    January 19, 2010 - Scott Brown is elected to the Senate.
    February 4, 2010 - Scott Brown takes office, reducing the number of Democratic senators to 59.

    March 21, 2010 - PPACA passes the House of Representatives, as-is, on a vote of 219-212, and heads to the White House to be signed into law.
    March 21, 2010 - The Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010 (HCERA) passes the House of Representatives on a vote of 220-211. This bill made some tweaks to the dollar amounts and timetables in PPACA.

    March 23, 2010 - President Obama signs PPACA into law.

    March 25, 2010 - A slightly modified version of HCERA passes the Senate under budget reconciliation rules, by a vote of 56-43.
    March 25, 2010 - The modified version of HCERA passes the House, by a vote of 220-207.

    March 30, 2010 - President Obama signs HCERA into law.
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  3. #33
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Your point is well taken. However, if the Budget Reconciliation process had not been illegitimately used
    How was it illegitimately used? It was used for precisely its intended purpose; two provisions of the reconciliation bill were even removed because they failed to meet the standards necessary for reconciliation.

    the provisions that passed the Senate through Budget Reconciliation would not have become law
    An academic point, since the main content was in PPACA which passed under the normal process. The only things that passed via budget reconciliation were relatively minor tweaks to the bill.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Agreed.



    Yeah. And I think that is a good thing. IMO, the elected officials have a more legitimate role in making that kind of decision. I'm not terribly happy with the ACA either. Maybe for different reasons than you. I think we desperately need a public option. But either way, IMO, we're better off with the legislature deciding how to handle it than the courts.
    Actually all we really have is a "public option", since ALL "private" medical care insurance must now play by totally gov't mandated "rules". With the gov't controlling the basis for setting "private" premium amounts (limits on age, gender height/weight and current health), setting the minimum AND maximum coverage rules and establishing an "acceptable" level of overhead/profit of no more than 20% of actual payments to medical care providers. Essentially we ALL lost the "private option", including the basic right to simply pay cash for our medical care.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Essentially we ALL lost the "private option", including the basic right to simply pay cash for our medical care.
    The Supreme Court just affirmed that you are free to go without health insurance if you like; that's completely fine. You just have to pay an irresponsibility tax, to cover the costs for when you end up in the emergency room and stick the public with the bill.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 06-29-12 at 08:42 PM.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Actually all we really have is a "public option", since ALL "private" medical care insurance must now play by totally gov't mandated "rules". With the gov't controlling the basis for setting "private" premium amounts (limits on age, gender height/weight and current health), setting the minimum AND maximum coverage rules and establishing an "acceptable" level of overhead/profit of no more than 20% of actual payments to medical care providers. Essentially we ALL lost the "private option", including the basic right to simply pay cash for our medical care.
    If just because a market is regulated, you no longer consider it to be the private sector, then no private sector has really existed in the first world for many decades. With the possible exception of a handful of industries that periodically move so quickly that it takes government a while to catch up. Usually with devastating consequences like high finance and to some extent, software.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    How was it illegitimately used? It was used for precisely its intended purpose; two provisions of the reconciliation bill were even removed because they failed to meet the standards necessary for reconciliation.
    What was the number for Obamacare that the administration gave to the CBO to score the legislation? Less than $1 trillion. That was the magic number. It was a lie.

    What was the number the CBO came up with later after passage? More than $1.7 trillion.

    If the real number had been used instead of a false number Obamacare wouldn't have been revenue neutral...in which case the Budget Reconciliation process couldn't have been used. In which case President Obama would have needed sixty votes to pass the full legislation. It's not just the ends that count. The proper means must be used to prevent the conclusion of bad faith on the part of the Democrats. Have you ever negotiated with someone you believe is acting in bad faith? If so, how do you treat that person henceforth?



    An academic point, since the main content was in PPACA which passed under the normal process. The only things that passed via budget reconciliation were relatively minor tweaks to the bill.
    I don't agree. If these matters were just tweaks why did the Senate Democrats bother to tweak these provisions instead of just sending the origninal Senate and House passed legislation directly to President Obama for signature? They only roiled the pot by using false numbers for the orignial CBO scoring and then using Budget Reconciliation for what some believe to be insignificant matters.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Not sure what you mean. How does anything in the ACA reduce the quality of care for anybody?
    Bans on "cadillac" plans for one thing, by establishing MAXIMUM levels of benefits provided. It also limits the difference in risk based establishment of premiums (removing the use of gender and height/weight, and severly limitting even the use of age), making the young/healthy pay FAR more, and the old/sick pay far less, skewing the actuarial basis for setting premiums.

    This is much like demanding that a guy with 4 DUIs, that has totalled 6 cars in the last 10 years, pay no more for auto insurance than 3x the "base" liability rate, even though their actuarial risk is 50x that "base" risk. When auto insurance companies give female drivers lower rates, based on sound actuarial risks, nobody complains, but when medical care insurance does the SAME THING, assigning higher rates for females or the obese, it is then "unfair".

    It is insane to let people wait until they are sick and THEN buy insurance, or "upgrade" their medical care coverage with NO NEW RISK ASSESMENT. What this does, is a give a GREAT deal to the sick/obese, but costs the average person MUCH more for the VERY same care that they now get, and lets more people get in the line for it; a clear reduction in the VALUE (quality?) of care.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-29-12 at 08:56 PM.
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    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  9. #39
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Bans on "cadillac" plans for one thing, by establishing MAXIMUM levels of benefits provided.
    There is no ban on cadillac plans. They just tax them.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    It also limits the difference in risk based establishment of premiums (removing the use of gender and height/weight, and severly limitting even the use of age), making the young/healthy pay FAR more, and the old/sick pay far less, skewing the actuarial basis for setting premiums.

    This is much like demanding that a guy with 4 DUIs, that has totalled 6 cars in the last 10 years, pay no more for auto insurance than 3x the "base" liability rate, even though their actuarial risk is 50x that "base" risk. When auto insurance companies give female drivers lower rates, based on sound actuarial risks, nobody complains, but when medical care insurance does the SAME THING, assigning higher rates for females or the obese, it is then "unfair".
    What does that have to do with the quality of care? That's just about how we want to distribute the costs as a society.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    It is insane to let people wait until they are sick and THEN buy insurance
    Exactly. Hence the need for a mandate.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  10. #40
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    It now appears that the dissent of the conservative Justices was at one time the majority opinion, and that Roberts changed his vote based on intimidation. He was intimidated by threats to delegitimize the Supreme Court if Obamacare wasn't validated. It may be that Chief Justice put his fears about the institution of the Supreme Court over his duty to interpret the Constitution. If this is true, Chief Justice Roberts breached his duty to the Constitution.
    There is no way to know if this is true and I seriously doubt it is. I think it's more likely that he believed that overturning Obamacare would have been a form of judicial activism.

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