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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo
    If you actually know which provisions of the legislation were passed through the Budget Reconciliation please refer me to them by reference to the specific sections in the legislation. That would save me a great deal of time. Thanks.


    Per Wikipedia, the specific provisions of the reconciliation bill for the PPACA (actually the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010) which dealt with health care were the items listed below. For the most part, the reconciliation act didn't establish any major new provisions (those are in PPACA); it just tweaked the dollar amounts and the timetables a bit. All other items not listed below were part of the PPACA and passed Congress without the need for reconciliation.

    1. Increasing the tax credits to buy insurance
    2. Eliminates several of the special deals given to senators, such as Ben Nelson's "Cornhusker Kickback"
    3. Lowers the penalty for not buying insurance from $750 to $695
    4. Closes the Medicare Part D "donut hole" by 2020 and gives seniors a rebate of $250.
    5. Delays the implementation on taxing "Cadillac health-care plans" until 2018
    6. Requires doctors who treat Medicare patients be reimbursed at the full rate
    7. Sets up a medicare tax on the unearned incomes of families that earn more than $250,000 annually.
    8. Offer more generous subsidies to lower income groups. Households below 150% of the federal poverty level would pay 2% to 4% of their income on premiums. Health plans would cover 94% of the cost of benefits.[19] Households with incomes from 150% to 400% of the federal poverty level ($88,200 for a family of four) would pay on a sliding scale from 4% to 9.8% of their income on premiums, rest will be covered by government advanceable, refundable tax credit. Health plans would cover 70% of the cost of the benefits.[19][20]
    9. In 2014, if a company with more than 50 workers does not offer coverage, they will be obligated to pay $2,000 for each full time worker in the company, exempting the money due for the first 30 employees. For example, an employer with 53 workers will pay the penalty for 23 workers, or $46,000.[19]
    10. Would increase Medicaid payment rates to primary care doctors to match Medicare payment rates, which are higher, in 2013 and 2014.[19]
    11. The federal government would pay all of the costs of expanding Medicaid under the reform until 2016, 95% in 2017, 94% in 2018, 93% in 2019, and 90% thereafter. Some states that already insure childless adults under Medicaid would receive more federal money for covering that group through 2018.
    12. The Medicare patients will receive 50% discount on brand-name drugs would begin in 2011. By 2020, the government would pay to provide up to 75% discount on brand-name and generic drugs, eventually closing the coverage gap.[19]
    13. Would extend the ban on lifetime limits and rescission of coverage to all existing health plans within six months after signing into Law
    Last edited by Kandahar; 06-29-12 at 08:18 PM.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Hare View Post
    The law upheld in it's entirety, yet at the end of the day it seems as if conservatives gain more political clout and enthusiasm than the victors in all their glory.
    That was, by far, the slickest part of ObamaCare; to make it get passed, and SC "tested" long before it was even completely written or put into effect. Since the HUGE cost increases in "private" medical care insurance do not take effect until 2014, we the sheeple are NOW quite easily fooled. The republicants must explain this SCAM very clearly and carefully, or they will be seen as mean rich guys denying "the poor" something of real value.

    The INDIVIDUAL penalty/tax/fee is the least of our worries, as that will effect, at most 2% of the population INITIALLY. 90% of current medical care insurance is bought by employers and given out as a tax free benefit to their employees. Most of the low wage workers, that now have NO medical care insurance benefit, will get HEAVILY subsidized "exchange" plans, that are the "last phase" of ObamaCare, and MANY others will get added to Medicaid (under the new expanded, qualification rules), further increasing both federal and state taxpayer burdens.

    The REALLY scary part of ObamaCare is what will EMPLOYERS decide to do in 2014, when the cost of medical care insurance goes WAY up. I predict that many will decide to pay the LOWER cost of the fine and drop the benefit, giving their employees what will SEEM to be a big pay raise of perhaps 80% of the difference between the fine and the PRE-OBAMACARE insurance benefit cost.

    At first this will seem wonderful, and will be so for the employers and the gov't; the employer will save money (20% of the current insurance costs are saved) and the gov't will get a HUGE windfall from FIT an FICA taxes on the employee's "big raises". The employees, after partying to celebrate their amazing new pay raises, however will then get to find out, first hand, just what ObamaCare REALLY costs, as they must now shop in the gov't controlled "private" medical care insurance market ON THEIR OWN. This will be very interesting to see, in 2014 and 2015.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-29-12 at 08:17 PM.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No, you don't understand. He was worried that the court would be delegitimized in the public eye if it was too blatantly partisan. It isn't like somebody was threatening to delegitimize it, it just is what would have happened if it disregarded the constitution to achieve right wing policy results that they couldn't achieve in the actual Congress. Roberts is indeed keenly aware of that risk. He has given many lectures on it lately.
    Hi Tea, you were right about the disposition of the Mandate and I was wrong. But you based your conclusion on the Commerce Clause and not the power of taxation. So we both missed the mark as far as the rationale goes.

    The fight over Obamacare will continue, but not before the Supreme Court. The fight goes back to the political realm and will last for years to come. Fraud in the inducement ensures continuing rage. Increasing costs, declining quality, and undeniable rationing will all be attributed to Obamacare because it's in effect, and thus within the line of causation.

    American political culture ensures that the controversy will continue...just like abortion.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    [/COLOR]

    Per Wikipedia, the specific provisions of the reconciliation bill for the PPACA (actually the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010) which dealt with health care were the items listed below. For the most part, the reconciliation act didn't establish any major new provisions (those are in PPACA); it just tweaked the dollar amounts and the timetables a bit. All other items not listed below were part of the PPACA and passed Congress without the need for reconciliation.
    Isn't it a fact that the Budget Reconciliation process was used after Scott Brown took away the 60th vote from Obamacare?

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Isn't it a fact that the Budget Reconciliation process was used after Scott Brown took away the 60th vote from Obamacare?
    If it is, you should be able to link to a source for that claim without trouble.
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    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Isn't it a fact that the Budget Reconciliation process was used after Scott Brown took away the 60th vote from Obamacare?
    Correct. But by that point, the bulk of the bill (PPACA) had already passed the Senate with 60 votes. The reconciliation process was then used to make some tweaks to the provisions as described above.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    If it is, you should be able to link to a source for that claim without trouble.
    Notice that I put my comment in the form of a leading question, and not in the form of an assertion.

    What date was Scott Brown sworn into the Senate, and what date did Obamacare pass through the Reconcilation process?

  8. #28
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    But you based your conclusion on the Commerce Clause and not the power of taxation. So we both missed the mark as far as the rationale goes.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    The fight over Obamacare will continue, but not before the Supreme Court. The fight goes back to the political realm and will last for years to come.
    Yeah. And I think that is a good thing. IMO, the elected officials have a more legitimate role in making that kind of decision. I'm not terribly happy with the ACA either. Maybe for different reasons than you. I think we desperately need a public option. But either way, IMO, we're better off with the legislature deciding how to handle it than the courts.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Correct. But by that point, the bulk of the bill (PPACA) had already passed the Senate with 60 votes. The reconciliation process was then used to make some tweaks to the provisions as described above.
    Your point is well taken. However, if the Budget Reconciliation process had not been illegitimately used the provisions that passed the Senate through Budget Reconciliation would not have become law because Scott Brown would have ensured the success of a filibuster.

    What impact would that have had on the totality of the legislation?

    You see where I'm going with this. The base is being enraged because of perceived illegitimate tactics. This means that Obamacare is going to become the source of ongoing controversy because conservatives won't let this go. That's the action dictated by American political culture. Neither left nor right lets anything go any more. The net effect is to ensure political paralysis. I didn't make up these rules. They are simply the way the game is played. Each side never gives in or compromises. It doesn't bode well for the idea of American social cohesion as the country faces a series of interrelated political, economic, and social crises.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Agreed.



    Yeah. And I think that is a good thing. IMO, the elected officials have a more legitimate role in making that kind of decision. I'm not terribly happy with the ACA either. Maybe for different reasons than you. I think we desperately need a public option. But either way, IMO, we're better off with the legislature deciding how to handle it than the courts.
    The country could have had a public option without destroying the quality of health care for tens of millions of people who had good existing coverage. It wasn't necessary to poison the well.

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