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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Does the phrase "the greatest good for the greatest number" mean anything to you?
    As Rosen[61] has pointed out, claiming that act utilitarians are not concerned about having rules is to set up a 'straw man'. Similarly, Hare refers to “the crude caricature of act utilitarianism which is the only version of it that many philosophers seem to be acquainted with.”[62] Given what Bentham says about second order evils[63] it would be a serious misrepresentation to say that he and similar act utilitarians would be prepared to punish an innocent person for the greater good. Nevertheless, whether they would agree or not, this is what critics of utilitarianism claim is entailed by the theory. A classic version of this criticism was given by H. J. McCloskey:
    “Suppose that a sheriff were faced with the choice either of framing a Negro for a rape that had aroused hostility to the Negroes (a particular Negro generally being believed to be guilty but whom the sheriff knows not to be guilty)-and thus preventing serious anti-Negro riots which would probably lead to some loss of life and increased hatred of each other by whites and Negroes- or of hunting for the guilty person and thereby allowing the anti-Negro riots to occur, while doing the best he can to combat them. In such a case the sheriff, if he were an extreme utilitarian, would appear to be committed to framing the Negro.”[64]
    By ‘extreme’ utilitarian McCloskey is referring to what later came to be called ‘act’ utilitarianism. Whilst this story might be quoted as part of a justification for moving from act to rule utilitarianism McCloskey anticipates this and points out that each rule has to be judged on its utility and it is not at all obvious that a rule with exceptions has less utility. The above story invites the reply that the sheriff would not frame the innocent because of the rule ‘do not punish an innocent person’. However, McCloskey asks, what about the rule “punish an innocent person when and only when to do so is not to weaken the existing institution of punishment and when the consequences of doing so are valuable”?
    In a later article McCloskey says:
    “Surely the utilitarian must admit that whatever the facts of the matter may be, it is logically possible that an ‘unjust’ system of punishment—e.g. a system involving collective punishments, retroactive laws and punishments, or punishments of parents and relations of the offender—may be more useful than a ‘just’ system of punishment?”[65]

    Utilitarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Ignoring Justice to set up your strawman arguments is a really dishonest way of approaching this argument...
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Feebie View Post
    Haymarket, if I may, while it's true that you do NOT have to buy health insurance, why should you be punished financially for not doing so? Further, a car is not a necessity, it's only a perception fed by advertising, etc. I know people who don't own vehicles, by choice. They live their lives and I don't hear them complain.
    and if they decide to drive while uninsured and incur expenses as a result, the public will not have to cover those costs

    in contrast, that person who elects not to acquire health coverage but who then requires medical attention they are unable to afford will receive that medical care. and the public will be required to pick up the tab

    that public's ultimate guaranty of payment for medical services rendered is what makes the difference between the two scenarios
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The Gallup poll shows lots of support for provisions of the law. Only 31% agree with the GOP position of repealing it.
    Everyone likes free stuff....Problem is who is going to pay for it.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Ignoring Justice to set up your strawman arguments is a really dishonest way of approaching this argument...
    No straw man. Just good common sense.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    While it may be possible in some areas of the land to NOT own a car - there are plenty of areas where that is not a reality.
    What is your point?

    Why should people be fined for not buying health insurance? Were I writing the law- that would not be part of it. However, since it is I can only imagine it is there as in incentive to take responsibility for your life in that area and not simply let others totally assume the cost of your own irresponsibility.
    Taking responsibility for the conscious decision not to buy an insurance product means accepting the consequence that you won't get the benefit of insurance if something happens. There is no element of "taking responsibility" for the things one has zero element of choice over in the first place.

    So by all means, let's let people finally be responsible again. Don't treat the uninsured unless they pay cash.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 06-30-12 at 03:53 PM.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Who exactly are the 'losers on health care' that the federal government has picked with this law?
    Health care quality will decrease for people who can't maintain their existing coverage because their employers decide to dump coverage and let the employees join exchanges. Lots of people with Cadillac plans who aren't in labor unions will find their employers scaling back coverage.

    Medical equipment manufaturers will be subjected to a new level of regulation that will have the impact of reducing incentives for bringing new products to the market.

    The medical profession will change with bureacrats interposing themselves between physician and patient.

    Seniors will experience a decline in the dollars devoted to their health care. Hundreds of billions will be diverted from Medicare to Obamacare.

    Existing Medicaid patients will experience a decline in care as tens of millions of people are added to the rolls of Medicaid.

    I'm sure the list goes on.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    in contrast, that person who elects not to acquire health coverage but who then requires medical attention they are unable to afford will receive that medical care. and the public will be required to pick up the tab
    Ok, so what did Obamacare change?
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    What is your point?



    Taking responsibility for the conscious decision not to buy an insurance product means accepting the consequence that you won't get the benefit of insurance if something happens. There is no element of "taking responsibility" for the things one has zero element of choice over in the first place.

    So by all means, let's let people finally be responsible again. Don't treat the uninsured unless they pay cash.
    You forgot that by law all persons recieve the same treatment in emergency rooms whether they have insurance or not. That law will not be changed so accident victims will be left on the side of the road to die. So stop the foolishness.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Does the phrase "the greatest good for the greatest number" mean anything to you?
    Sure it means something. It meant a lot to Stalin. It meant a lot to about 10,000,000 people in the Ukraine too. You could ask them, I suppose, had they not all been sacrificed for the good of the greatest number. But no surprise,really, that you would embrace and endorse the principles behind mass slaughter.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    No straw man. Just good common sense.
    No, it is a strawman...rules must exist.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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