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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    from Albert DS



    I would hope we are all on the side of America and its people.

    the Court seemed to say that in their ruling.
    There is a duality in life. For everything one gains there is something one forfeits.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    There is a duality in life. For everything one gains there is something one forfeits.
    That seems counter to the usual Republican talking point ... that economics is not a zero sum game.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    The court said the law was constitutional, and nothing more.
    When one of the most conservative justices in the last seventy years sides with the four more liberal judges, it says a whole lot more than that.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    There is a duality in life. For everything one gains there is something one forfeits.
    While that sounds decent enough on a "learn this well young grasshopper" level, it is mostly a cliche and says really nothing about the subject being discussed.

    In the nation gaining protections from the Health Care Act, what is it exactly that we are losing?
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    That seems counter to the usual Republican talking point ... that economics is not a zero sum game.
    Do you think I'm a Republican? Not bloody damn likely. Polities come and go. Ideals survive. I'm more of a fusion between classical liberalism and confucianism.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    While that sounds decent enough on a "learn this well young grasshopper" level, it is mostly a cliche and says really nothing about the subject being discussed.

    In the nation gaining protections from the Health Care Act, what is it exactly that we are losing?
    Here's a biggie...how about loosing the right to choose what we don't want to buy?
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    While that sounds decent enough on a "learn this well young grasshopper" level, it is mostly a cliche and says really nothing about the subject being discussed.

    In the nation gaining protections from the Health Care Act, what is it exactly that we are losing?
    Obamacare is part of the quest for Social Justice as interpreted by the left. Social Justice as so interpreted requires movement towards equality of outcome. This form of equality can only be achieved at the expense of that component element of the ideal of individual liberty which I call personal autonomy.

    There is a tension between the ideals of individual liberty and equality as denoted above. This is the tension between classical liberalism and post-modern liberalism. The type of liberty I believe in can be traced back to the American Revolution, the European Enlightenment, the Roman Republic, and Classical Greece.

    The type of equality you believe in can be traced back to the French Revolution, Hegel and Marx.

    There is a similar tension between environmentalism and Social Justice. It's just that most liberals cannot perceive this tension. But here in coastal California the relationship between environmentalism and human suffering is unmistakeable.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Here's a biggie...how about loosing the right to choose what we don't want to buy?
    Are you under the impression that you had the right to buy or not buy every single thing you want to buy before the SC decision? What about the decision changed that in any real way?

    Many things come with a price. Now you know what the price is for not being responsible for your own insurance so the rest of society does not have to buy for you what you would not buy for yourself.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Obamacare is part of the quest for Social Justice as interpreted by the left. Social Justice as so interpreted requires movement towards equality of outcome. This form of equality can only be achieved at the expense of that component element of the ideal of individual liberty which I call personal autonomy.

    There is a tension between the ideals of individual liberty and equality as denoted above. This is the tension between classical liberalism and post-modern liberalism. The type of liberty I believe in can be traced back to the American Revolution, the European Enlightenment, the Roman Republic, and Classical Greece.

    The type of equality you believe in can be traced back to the French Revolution, Hegel and Marx.

    There is a similar tension between environmentalism and Social Justice. It's just that most liberals cannot perceive this tension. But here in coastal California the relationship between environmentalism and human suffering is unmistakeable.
    The Marx I know the most about is Groucho.

    The idea that we chose between what you call 'liberty' and what you call 'equality of outcome' is a false framing of the issue.

    People are not equal and no amount of government can ever change that. What government can do is to use its powers to help build a society which is sustainable and a place where people want to live and work as citizens with equal rights.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Obamacare is part of the quest for Social Justice as interpreted by the left. Social Justice as so interpreted requires movement towards equality of outcome. This form of equality can only be achieved at the expense of that component element of the ideal of individual liberty which I call personal autonomy.

    There is a tension between the ideals of individual liberty and equality as denoted above. This is the tension between classical liberalism and post-modern liberalism. The type of liberty I believe in can be traced back to the American Revolution, the European Enlightenment, the Roman Republic, and Classical Greece.

    The type of equality you believe in can be traced back to the French Revolution, Hegel and Marx.

    There is a similar tension between environmentalism and Social Justice. It's just that most liberals cannot perceive this tension. But here in coastal California the relationship between environmentalism and human suffering is unmistakeable.
    Sure, there can be tension between any two policy goals. You balance and try to optimize them together.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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