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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

  1. #141
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The federal government does not have the power to implement taxes that would violate the Constitution, or that are designed with the purpose of discouraging people from exercising their constitutional rights. So for example, the government can't tax me because I don't own a Bible (and they can't impose a specific tax if I *do* buy a Bible). They can't tax me for voting. They can't tax me for not contributing money to a certain political party. Etc, etc.

    Furthermore, the main "limit on the federal power of taxation" is the election process. If you think that the government is taxing you too much or taxing you for the wrong things, then vote for someone else.
    What you're suggesting is that there is absolutely no limitation on federal power to accomplish whatever it wants except to the extent it imposes a burden on things like the right to free speech, assembly, and a few of the non-economic rights under the Bill of Rights.

    It seems to me you believe in what some call post-modern liberalism as opposed to classical liberalism. There are now no limitations on the growth of federal power to bureaucratize all economic spheres in American life.

    Voting is only one part of opposition. It is perfectly legitimate to sabotage the political agenda of one's opponents.

    There is no limit on the vision of the American left. There is nothing the left cannot impose on people who are classical liberals.

    America is now based on separate identity politics. The Democratic Party is primarily a party of non-whites and very well heeled and educated whites. The Republican Party is primarily the party of non-elite whites. Do you see how the attempt by one side to impose its will on the other side in the era of a shrinking/slow growing economic pie will have explosive consequences for American social cohesion? America is going to become a much more deeply divided country in which grievances are held by all groups.

  2. #142
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yes, the government can and does tax you for not owning a Chevy Volt. They just call it a tax credit, and they give it to people who *do* buy hybrid and electric cars.
    The point being that the state can now tax you for not doing something they want you to do. Not sure why people would support that sort of thing.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post





    America is now based on separate identity politics. The Democratic Party is primarily a party of non-whites and very well heeled and educated whites. The Republican Party is primarily the party of non-elite whites. Do you see how the attempt by one side to impose its will on the other side in the era of a shrinking/slow growing economic pie will have explosive consequences for American social cohesion? America is going to become a much more deeply divided country in which grievances are held by all groups.
    NON ELITE WHITES!?!?!?!?!?!?

    Amazing.

    So all these rich GOP office holders are just shot and a beer bowling alley types?
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  4. #144
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    The point being that the state can now tax you for not doing something they want you to do. Not sure why people would support that sort of thing.
    News flash: they always could (and did).

    Why do you think our health care system is based on employer-provided coverage?

    The reason is that employers have long been "mandated" to provide insurance through the tax code. The employer health insurance deduction is far and away the biggest deduction we have. It costs over $150 billion/yr. In other words, if you have insurance through your employer then your health care has always been subsidized by the government.
    Last edited by AdamT; 06-30-12 at 11:11 AM.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    NON ELITE WHITES!?!?!?!?!?!?

    Amazing.

    So all these rich GOP office holders are just shot and a beer bowling alley types?
    The Republican voters mostly are less educated whites. The Republican politicians are mostly elites. And obviously the platform is exclusively designed to serve the elites. It's bizarre.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  6. #146
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    What you're suggesting is that there is absolutely no limitation on federal power to accomplish whatever it wants except to the extent it imposes a burden on things like the right to free speech, assembly, and a few of the non-economic rights under the Bill of Rights.
    Correct.

    It seems to me you believe in what some call post-modern liberalism as opposed to classical liberalism. There are now no limitations on the growth of federal power to bureaucratize all economic spheres in American life.
    Yup.

    Voting is only one part of opposition. It is perfectly legitimate to sabotage the political agenda of one's opponents.
    So that's why you're purposely spreading lies and misinformation, and fomenting racism.

    There is no limit on the vision of the American left. There is nothing the left cannot impose on people who are classical liberals.
    With the exception of those constitutional limitations I mentioned, that's a fair assessment of my position, yes.

    America is now based on separate identity politics. The Democratic Party is primarily a party of non-whites and very well heeled and educated whites. The Republican Party is primarily the party of non-elite whites.
    The Republican Party is the party of bitter old white dudes, and their wives. The Democratic Party is the party of everyone else.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    The point being that the state can now tax you for not doing something they want you to do. Not sure why people would support that sort of thing.
    If we define any collected by the government as a TAX the way Roberts did - and that includes fines, penalties, fees, assessments and anything else that separates a citizen from his money, then we have been doing just that in many many ways for a long long time now.

    If I do not buckle my seat belt in the car I can be fined..... hit with a penalty .... in Roberts think - I can be taxed for it.

    People have supported such things for a long time now.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    ...
    Furthermore, the main "limit on the federal power of taxation" is the election process. If you think that the government is taxing you too much or taxing you for the wrong things, then vote for someone else.
    I don't think that's true any more. About half of the people in the country are beneficiaries of federal largess paid for at the expense of a separate and distinct group of other people. The image of someone milking a cow comes to mind.

    China is going to rock America's world. America won't be able to cope because of its internal divisions. Deeply divided peoples cannot cope with peer powers with social cohesion. Foreign powers are the only limitation on the power of the American left. Those powers have the ability to change ground level reality for America and American workers. This is the cold hard face of reality that will undermine the Blue Social Model by disempowering America. That is the only check on your side's power.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yes, the government can and does tax you for not owning a Chevy Volt. They just call it a tax credit, and they give it to people who *do* buy hybrid and electric cars.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the hybrid credit is no longer available.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    I don't think that's true any more. About half of the people in the country are beneficiaries of federal largess paid for at the expense of a separate and distinct group of other people. The image of someone milking a cow comes to mind.

    China is going to rock America's world. America won't be able to cope because of its internal divisions. Deeply divided peoples cannot cope with peer powers with social cohesion. Foreign powers are the only limitation on the power of the American left. Those powers have the ability to change ground level reality for America and American workers. This is the cold hard face of reality that will undermine the Blue Social Model by disempowering America. That is the only check on your side's power.
    You could have been describing the late Thirties. What happened in 1941 to change all that?

    If there is a good reason to unite, Americans will unite. If people push them to disunity, if people encourage dissolution, if extremists stir the waters of discontent and push for things like secession and the falling apart of America, then that sort of self fulfilling prophecy is on them.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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