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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

  1. #131
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The federal government does not have the power to implement taxes that would violate the Constitution, or that are designed with the purpose of discouraging people from exercising their constitutional rights. So for example, the government can't tax me because I don't own a Bible (and they can't impose a specific tax if I *do* buy a Bible). They can't tax me for voting. They can't tax me for not contributing money to a certain political party. Etc, etc.

    Furthermore, the main "limit on the federal power of taxation" is the election process. If you think that the government is taxing you too much or taxing you for the wrong things, then vote for someone else.
    But if they can now legally tax you for NOT owning health insurance, why could they not tax you for not owning a bible?

  2. #132
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    But if they can now legally tax you for NOT owning health insurance, why could they not tax you for not owning a bible?
    Because that would violate the first amendment.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  3. #133
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Obamacare will go on forever. It won't end in ten years or twelve years. The cost overrun will go on year after year after year.
    There is no cost overrun, at least not yet. The ACA's financial figures look slightly better today than they did when the CBO first scored it in 2010.

    Democrats will have to have conservative cooperation. But conservatives don't believe Democrats act in good faith. That's a problem for the left isn't it?
    You are the one trying to foment racial resentment, flat-out lying about policies, and telling me that "I need to convince conservatives" instead of actually refuting the substantive points I made (a basic acknowledgement that you know I'm right and simply don't care). So you aren't exactly in a good position to accuse anyone else of not acting in good faith.

    With all due respect, and admiration for your tenacity, you are honestly mistaken. You base your opinion on the dissembling of others.
    No I'm not. I base it on the CBO's latest report, from March 13, 2012:

    "CBO and JCT now estimate that the insurance coverage provisions of the ACA will have a net cost of just under $1.1 trillion over the 2012-2021 period-about $50 billion less than the agencies' March 2011 estimate for that 10-year period."
    CBO | CBO Releases Updated Estimates for the Insurance Coverage Provisions of the Affordable Care Act

    Are you saying that the CBO didn't report earlier this year that Obamacare will cost $1.76 trillion?
    This is because we're two years closer to implementation than we were when the bill was passed. Of course 2010-2019 isn't going to cost as much as 2012-2021. The main provisions don't take effect until 2014. This has been known from the beginning and is hardly some surprising new cost overrun. The CBO estimates that the ACA will produce a surplus every year until 2014, dip into a slight deficit in 2014-2015, and then produce a surplus again from 2016 onward.

    Can you name an entitlement program that has ever come in under budget or at budget over a period of twenty years?
    Medicare Part D seems to be staying within its budget so far...although that's more due to external factors (e.g. generic drugs, rate of new drug development, etc) than government policy. In fact, the CBO has historically overestimated the cost of health care spending:
    New Research Finds Congressional Budget Office Has Underestimated Savings and Overestimated Costs from Health Policy Changes - The Commonwealth Fund

    There are a lot of sick old folks who are going to overwhelm America during the next twenty years. The way to break Obamacare is to have it harm the economy and screw up people's lives. Those are the rules of the game.
    At least you acknowledge your goals are to break Obamacare, harm the economy, and screw up people's lives, so that you can win the game you're playing. What was that about Democrats not negotiating in good faith again?

    Do you think conservatives are going to believe you or me. It's only necessary to persuade conservatives in order to monkey wrench Obamacare over the years.
    I'm just telling you the facts. You've already made up your mind and aren't interested in an exchange of ideas, or learning the reality...you've basically admitted that you just want to spread misinformation and lies (not to mention scapegoating racial minorities) for political gain. So I really don't see the point of continuing this conversation.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 06-30-12 at 10:50 AM.
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  4. #134
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    you think 15 people in Washington DC will be deciding cases for 311 million people on an individual basis
    Of course not.

    If the panel studies the literature and determines that, e.g. when a patient presents with test results LIKE Joe's, then a stent is both cheaper and more effective than open heart surgery, then I suspect that their judgment is probably better than any decision that Joe the Plumber is likely to come up with.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

  5. #135
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    yup. so, generally speaking, who do you think is going to understand your individual circumstances better in figuring out what you don't need? You? Or someone in a cubicle in Washington trying to make you fit into a box with 125,000,000 others with a one-size-fits-not-quite-anybody solution?
    It depends what exactly you mean by "what you need." You're probably a better judge of whether or not you need to get a certain symptom checked out by a doctor. But the guy in a cubicle in Washington is probably a better judge than you of which procedures are actually effective and which are just a waste of money. Why? Because he has access to aggregated data from all over the country that can compare costs and efficacy, whereas all you have is the opinion of one doctor (who may not be a disinterested party in your decision). Since most people are not medical experts, they will likely just go with whatever their doctor tells them to do in the absence of any evidence to the contrary.
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  6. #136
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    no. just the policies. Obama's favorabilities are much higher than the health insurance bill tax that bears his name.
    And the individual provisions of the ACA (with the exception of the mandate) poll better than the law as a whole. So what's your point?
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    But if they can now legally tax you for NOT owning health insurance, why could they not tax you for not owning a bible?
    Because you have a constitutional right to not own a Bible. You don't have a constitutional right to not own health insurance.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Because that would violate the first amendment.
    Ok, replace bible with Chevy Volt or any other non religious product or service.

  9. #139
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Ok, replace bible with Chevy Volt or any other non religious product or service.
    Yes, the government can and does tax you for not owning a Chevy Volt. They just call it a tax credit, and they give it to people who *do* buy hybrid and electric cars.
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  10. #140
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Ok, replace bible with Chevy Volt or any other non religious product or service.
    Yes, then if we voted for representatives that would tax us for not owning a chevy volt, that would be legal.

    Not that taxing inefficient cars would be stupid. It would actually be a very smart policy. But, regardless, it isn't possible to have a document that prevents us from doing stupid things. Any constitutional power could be used stupidly. The People have the power, through the Congress, to build so many post offices that they block out the sun. That is an unlimited, explicitly granted, power the Congress gets in the constitution. But the government doesn't do that because obviously they would be voted out.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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