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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Not sure what you mean. How does anything in the ACA reduce the quality of care for anybody?
    What do you think will happen when thirty million more people are suddenly added to Medicaid?

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    How was it illegitimately used? It was used for precisely its intended purpose; two provisions of the reconciliation bill were even removed because they failed to meet the standards necessary for reconciliation.



    An academic point, since the main content was in PPACA which passed under the normal process. The only things that passed via budget reconciliation were relatively minor tweaks to the bill.
    What did President Obama say would be the budget impact of Obamacare during the first ten years?

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The Supreme Court just affirmed that you are free to go without health insurance if you like; that's completely fine. You just have to pay an irresponsibility tax, to cover the costs for when you end up in the emergency room and stick the public with the bill.
    What limit is there on the federal power of taxation after Chief Justice Roberts' opinion in Roberts v. America?

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I don't know all the details, but probably not. It's sort of a subspecies of the freeloader problem. People get those kinds of plans and then skimp on preventative care and it ends up creating most costs in the long run.
    How do HDHPs create high costs in the long run? If you're too cheap to pay for yearly check-ups out of pocket with such a plan, the only person you cost is yourself with your high deductible costs.

    The WHOLE POINT of HDHPs is that you place responsibility of cost and risk onto yourself. If you want to argue about people "freeloading," then argue about the people who only pay 10 dollars to see the doctor and waste resources every time they have a cough.
    Last edited by Republic Now!; 06-30-12 at 02:05 AM.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    What do you think will happen when thirty million more people are suddenly added to Medicaid?
    I think that 30 million more Americans will get much needed care. Am I supposed to feel bad that you might have to wait an extra week to have your ass boil lanced so that 30 million Americans can have preventive care?
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    There is no way to know if this is true and I seriously doubt it is. I think it's more likely that he believed that overturning Obamacare would have been a form of judicial activism.
    It doesn't matter whether this is true or not. This will be used according to the terms of American political culture. A Kingdom of Lies has little use for the complete truth. Remember, both sides play this game the same way. The point is to delegitimize the other side initially in the eyes of your own side. That's what happened to President Bush after Bush v. Gore.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    I think that 30 million more Americans will get much needed care. Am I supposed to feel bad that you might have to wait an extra week to have your ass boil lanced so that 30 million Americans can have preventive care?
    Providing care to the 30 million more Americans who have nothing to offer to the pool means not only that per capita health care expenditures increase, but that the burden of covering them weighs down that much more heavily on... whoever has any money left.

    You are supposed to feel bad about that, yes. The goal here needs to be about suppressing the costs of medical care, not flinging ever more costs onto the taxpayer.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    First of all, "the administration" doesn't give the CBO any numbers to score.
    The assumptions are contained in the legislation that is presented to the CBO.

    The CBO looks at the legislation on its own and assesses the ten-year cost of the bill. Want to know why the ten-year cost is higher now than it was when the bill was first past? Because it's two years closer to actually being implemented. This was hardly an unforeseen cost of the bill; that's been part of the cost all along.
    Obamacare will go on forever. It won't end in ten years or twelve years. The cost overrun will go on year after year after year. Actually the way to sabotage Obamacare is to cause the budget deficit to explode along with the national debt while the political system remains paralyzed. What entitlement program ever comes in at or under budget. Costs always explode in unforeseeable ways. Democrats will have to have conservative cooperation. But conservatives don't believe Democrats act in good faith. That's a problem for the left isn't it?

    In fact, the financial figures are actually slightly BETTER (although within the margin of error) for the ACA than they were at the time it was passed.
    With all due respect, and admiration for your tenacity, you are honestly mistaken. You base your opinion on the dissembling of others.



    The CBO confirmed a few months ago that the ACA is still on track to reduce the deficit. And the most recent estimates I've seen indicate that they initially slightly underestimated the deficit reduction.
    Are you saying that the CBO didn't report earlier this year that Obamacare will cost $1.76 trillion? Can you name an entitlement program that has ever come in under budget or at budget over a period of twenty years? There are a lot of sick old folks who are going to overwhelm America during the next twenty years. The way to break Obamacare is to have it harm the economy and screw up people's lives. Those are the rules of the game.



    As I already mentioned, only a minor part of the act was passed via budget reconciliation. So even if your misinformation about the ACA increasing the deficit were true, all that Congress would need to do was make sure that those minor provisions passed via reconciliation didn't increase the cost of the deficit, rather than the entire bill.
    Do you think conservatives are going to believe you or me. It's only necessary to persuade conservatives in order to monkey wrench Obamacare over the years.



    60 senators did indeed vote for the PPACA, which was signed into law as-is.
    The meme on the right is that the Democratic Senate victories in Minnesota and Alaska that gave them sixty votes for a brief period of a few months was occasioned by voter fraud in the former case and prosecutorial malfeasance in the latter case. Remember, it's only necessary to persuade conservatives in order to monkey wrench Obamacare's implementation.



    Because that's the agreement that the Senate Democrats made with House Democrats: The House would vote to pass the Senate bill (PPACA) as-is, but in exchange the Senate had to pass the House's minor tweaks via budget reconciliation.
    You and I will have to agree to disagree.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Republic Now! View Post
    How do HDHPs create high costs in the long run? If you're too cheap to pay for yearly check-ups out of pocket with such a plan, the only person you cost is yourself with your high deductible costs.

    The WHOLE POINT of HDHPs is that you place responsibility of cost and risk onto yourself. If you want to argue about people "freeloading," then argue about the people who only pay 10 dollars to see the doctor and waste resources every time they have a cough.
    NO, the costs don't just land on the freeloader, they hit everybody. Maybe later they sign up for full fledged insurance, maybe the vast majority of their costs are over the deductible anyways. Either way, the costs end up driving up the cost of insurance. Preventative care is way cheaper than treating preventable conditions. Like a tiny fraction of the cost.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    I think that 30 million more Americans will get much needed care. Am I supposed to feel bad that you might have to wait an extra week to have your ass boil lanced so that 30 million Americans can have preventive care?
    Adam, you are supposed to feel bad because you can foresee the future just like Cassandra. You and I both have a reasonable idea about what will happen without conservative acquiesence to the decision in Roberts v. America. That's why you can't enjoy this victory. You know in your heart that this isn't over.

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