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Thread: House holds holder in contempt [W:140

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    Re: House holds holder in contempt [W:140

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post
    Not really, they could have been stopped at the border and arrested for exporting firearms without a license or permit, a felony.
    So Arizona is playing a game of chicken with the Feds? They sell as many guns as they can and dare the Feds to stop them at the border? That is a ludicrous policy.

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    Re: House holds holder in contempt [W:140

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post
    Are you saying our Government can't even control our airspace along the border either? Both the Border and the airspace are the sole responsibility of the Federal Government who has yet again dropped the ball then blames the states. The Obama administration not only knew about the straw buyers gun purchases but purposely allowed them to cross the border with them.
    That's right, I'm saying that the government will never be able to completely seal off the border. East Germany put up a 30', barbed wire topped wall manned with machine gunners and they couldn't completely seal their border.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

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    Re: House holds holder in contempt [W:140

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    That's right, I'm saying that the government will never be able to completely seal off the border. East Germany put up a 30', barbed wire topped wall manned with machine gunners and they couldn't completely seal their border.
    I guarantee no one ever carried 100 assault rifles at a time across the Berlin Wall either. The point is the Obama administration purposely allowed them cross over into Mexico with them. You seem to forget the gun dealers were being told to allow the straw man purchases.

    Mexico demands extradition of U.S. officials

    July 5, 2011

    Fast & Furious: Mexico says extradite U.S. officials to face trial as gunrunners.

    Mexico lawmakers demand extradition of U.S. officials, outraged over an Obama federal program allowing drug cartels to buy guns in Arizona, called "Operation Fast and Furious,"reports Fox News Tuesday morning.

    "Imagine, if the Mexican government purposely and knowingly sent thousands of pounds of pure cocaine into the United States as part of an investigation - and hundreds of Americans died as a result. That is how Mexico feels right now over "Operation Fast and Furious". Angry, betrayed by the U.S.

    21 dead in New Mexico, according to sources the guns recovered came compliments of the U.S. government."

    Fast & Furious: Mexico says extradite U.S. officials to face trial as gunrunners - National Political Transcripts | Examiner.com
    I hope they turn them over to Mexico and let them put them on trial.
    Last edited by Prof. Peabody; 07-07-12 at 03:43 PM.
    "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

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    Re: House holds holder in contempt [W:140

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post
    I guarantee no one ever carried 100 assault rifles at a time across the Berlin Wall either. The point is the Obama administration purposely allowed them cross over into Mexico with them. You seem to forget the gun dealers were being told to allow the straw man purchases.



    I hope they turn them over to Mexico and let them put them on trial.
    The gun buyers signed the paper that said the guns were for them and that's all the dealers needed to be totally legal. THe govt. did not tell any dealers to break any laws. The sales would have happened exactly the same without any F&F. Change the laws and prohibit volume gun buying if you really give a damn about American guns in the hands of criminals. Do you? I doubt it.
    Last edited by iguanaman; 07-07-12 at 03:54 PM.

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    Re: House holds holder in contempt [W:140

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    The gun buyers signed the paper that said the guns were for them and that's all the dealers needed to be totally legal. THe govt. did not tell any dealers to break any laws. The sales would have happened exactly the same without any F&F. Change the laws and prohibit volume gun buying if you really give a damn about American guns in the hands of criminals. Do you? I doubt it.
    The straw buyer was stopped at the Mexican border with the weapons he purchased but ordered let go by the ATF, with the very guns used to kill Agent Brian Terry.

    ATF’s Fast and Furious: A Gun Store Owner Speaks Out

    by Gretchen Gavett

    A Phoenix-area gun dealer recently opened up about his role in Operation Fast and Furious, the now-infamous ATF gunrunning sting gone horribly wrong.

    “Was I betrayed? Absolutely yes,” Andre Howard told the Los Angeles Times about his experience cooperating with ATF agents.

    The deal: Howard would sell weapons illegally and the ATF would track them as part of their sting. He sold hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of weapons over 15 months but never heard about any arrests. Howard says he feared that someone might get hurt:

    “Every passing week, I worried about something like that,” he said. “I felt horrible and sick.”

    Howard’s worst fears came true last December, when two AK-47 variants he sold were found at a crime scene in Mexico near where U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was found dead. The Times also reports that the straw buyer in the case, Jaime Avila, was stopped with weapons at the Mexico border, but ordered released by the ATF with the hope they could trace the weapons to Mexican drug cartels.

    To date, more than 100 guns have found in Mexico have been traced to Fast and Furious; according to a congressional report and Arizona’s ABC affiliate, several are Romarm Cugir AK-47 variants similar to the ones we profiled during our Gunrunners investigation. These weapons have become the “scourge” of the Mexican drug war.

    ATF’s Fast and Furious: A Gun Store Owner Speaks Out | Criminal Justice | FRONTLINE | PBS
    Mexico wants the U.S. officials extradited to Mexico, I say give 'em a chance to turn over information and testify, if they don't send 'em to Mexico for trail.
    "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

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    Re: House holds holder in contempt [W:140

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    So Arizona is playing a game of chicken with the Feds? They sell as many guns as they can and dare the Feds to stop them at the border? That is a ludicrous policy.
    Oh please the sales were at the behest of the Feds. The straw buyer Jamie Avilia was stopped at the border with the guns used to killed Border Agent Terry, the ATF order them to let him go with the guns. We need to start with those folks who gave those orders. If they protect their higher ups, off to Mexico to stand trial.
    "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

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    Re: House holds holder in contempt [W:140

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post
    The straw buyer was stopped at the Mexican border with the weapons he purchased but ordered let go by the ATF, with the very guns used to kill Agent Brian Terry.
    I believe that is false. ATF was informed of Avila's legal gun purchases by the gun seller (voluntarily -- not because it was required), but it was a federal holiday and they didn't learn of the purchase until the guns were already in Mexico. They recorded the serial numbers of the guns anyway, and one of them turned up at the Terry murder scene.

    Previously ATF had sought to indict Avila, but prosecutors refused to authorize it because they said there was insufficient evidence (the obvserved gun purchases were legal under Arizona law).

    The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal - Fortune Features
    Last edited by AdamT; 07-07-12 at 07:48 PM.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: House holds holder in contempt [W:140

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    but it was a federal holiday and they didn't learn of the purchase until the guns were already in Mexico.
    So as long as it's a federal holiday, criminals are good to go, no worries. Bizarre excuse making.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT
    but prosecutors refused to authorize it because they said there was insufficient evidence (the obvserved gun purchases were legal under Arizona law).
    It doesn't matter if purchases are legal or illegal, running the guns across the boarder is illegal, and the federal governments job to stop. More excuse making for a failed federal government.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

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    Re: House holds holder in contempt [W:140

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    So as long as it's a federal holiday, criminals are good to go, no worries. Bizarre excuse making.
    Uh, it's a description of what apparently happened -- not excuse making. Hard to tell border patrol to let the guns walk if you don't even know that they've been sold.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: House holds holder in contempt [W:140

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Seems to be more of them not liking his crackdown on voter suppression laws than anything else
    Like when he prosecuted the Philly Panthers for voter intimidation. Oh...wait...!

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