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SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758, 1205]

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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

Interesting position. Is there a "tax" for not driving a car? Is there a situation where you could just not have to pay car insurance? Answer is yup, don't drive a car.

What you're essentially doing is equating a voluntary action like "driving a car" to living. So, I guess in a way you're right, if you don't want to pay the tax or get bloated insurance you could just kill yourself, but I guess that logic would apply to any law really.
For most people driving a car is a necessity. Some people can get away not driving a car, but for pretty much everyone else, you are forced to carry car insurance, and pretty much everyone does it and doesn't complain.

What people neglect are the alternatives to big bloated insurance that many people choose to use because they are more practical for them. No, your options aren't just buying a 400 buck a month insurance plan or leeching off the public dime.
Just what exactly are those alternatives, self-pay?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

I agree with you. It won't be a civil war.

It will have to be a revolution. The Constitution has been overturned. There are no more limits for government. So the government must go. This is an overwhelmingly bad thing that the Democrats and the Supreme Court has done.

Well then - see you at the gallows, my treason endorsing friend. :2wave:
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

the waivers are given to corporations (shocking, I know). Individuals who have taxes levied against them do not have an ability to get a waiver

The corporate beast is whom the government panders to. A give away to the insurance companies with get out of jail free cards for the corporations. Yay! I'm sure glad that we didn't solve any of the actual problems with our health care system.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

again wrong.. but keep your streak alive... 0 for 1,000,000 is impressive in Obama land..

Watch and learn, Grasshopper. :lol:
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

the waivers are given to corporations (shocking, I know). Individuals who have taxes levied against them do not have an ability to get a waiver

If corporations are people, do t hey have to have health insurance too?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

If the tax penalty is to have any effect at all then the "tax penalty" has to be greater than the cost of compliance.

The cost of compliance is burdensome.

This also seems to mean that they can now tax us for anything as well.

Plumbers butt---Taxed
Fat people-Taxed
Girls who dont....nevermind
 
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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

Can you ever stay on target or is your hatred against libertarians so much that you can't control yourself?

Another example of why we cannot have an intelligent debate on this subject.

20 pages of Albert Di Salvo talking about how this is a problem for the white middle class and all of a sudden I'm derailing the thread? Your selective vision is selective.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

the waivers are given to corporations (shocking, I know). Individuals who have taxes levied against them do not have an ability to get a waiver

Correct but waivers by company or industry would imply unfair treatment under the law wouldnt it? I really dont know, Im thinking it is, but after today who knows how something like that would get ruled. Im thinking the waivers would extend to the employees since most of the waivers allow them to have substandard coverage that allows them to remain in compliance and not pay the penalty tax.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

If corporations are people, do t hey have to have health insurance too?

Corporations are only "people" when it benefits the corporations.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

If corporations are people, do t hey have to have health insurance too?

They do: it's called the US Treasury.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

Moderator's Warning:
Hautey, ARC, Ikari. The thread isn't about "libertarians" or "ron paul" or "slave owners". Hautey, continue to try to thread jack by interjecting your thoughts and argument regarding libertarians/ron paul and slave ownership again and you'll get the boot. The others, respond to baiting with flames or off topic posts is no less against the rules. Stick to the topic or get an exit as well.

Going to say this...one more time since it's been about 300 posts. This is a hot button issue that is extremely contentious. There have been thread bans handed out and there undoubtably will be more. Stick to the topic and to responses regarding the fallout of this ruling. If you wish to flame, bait, or attempt to derail you'll find the exit quickly. This is going to be a major topic of discussion and those seeking to derail it will not be allowed to remain
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

20 pages of Albert Di Salvo talking about how this is a problem for the white middle class and all of a sudden I'm derailing the thread? Your selective vision is selective.

There's an actual issue at heart here. Try to stay on target. If someone brings up something off topic, you don't have to respond and encourage it.

Jesus, it's not that tough.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

Well, My thoughts very preliminarily are really several fold here.

1. I think that Roberts was wrong to side with the liberal wing of the court here, largely on the unequal taxation that this will now enshrine that the government has the right to do. So, the court today just wiped out a piece of the constitution in that regard.

2. The ruling has energized those who are and have been against this law from the begining, the group we saw in 2010 sweep elections. Romney, if his team is smart enough to take advantage of this will win November in a landslide on the anger of the 60% of Americans against this law.

3. Even though Obama said to George Snufolupogus in 2009 that 'no way was this a tax' and then repeated that over, and over, until they got in front of the court, now it is a tax. The largest tax on the middle class in history! Good job libs...$4000. to every middle class family estimated by the CBO.

4. The court, and Obama have just dropped the hammer on small business, in this time of anemic growth at best is plain stupid! Many now will drop Health Insurance offered to employees, and take the tax because it will be cheaper to do so. Or, they will go out of business all together under the weight of cost.


This was a fraud from the beginning, and remains a lie to this day that Obama has given us...I am saddened, but at the same time hopeful that America will wake up and stop the progressive nightmare.
I like all that you said but the supreme court precedent that eliminates limits on the federal government. So there is no stopping this no matter what happens. We are in a full blown tyranny now. Is there any way out short of a revolution? I would love to see any other option.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

If that is to have any effect at all then the "tax penalty" has to be greater than the cost of compliance.



Agree. This is just the start of the govt taxing the crap out of those that are paying taxes, in order for this behemoth to pay it's own way.
 
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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

the USA isn't as weak as you appear to think it is.

and no, this ruling has NOTHING to do with private-property rights.

How do you feel about the largest tax increase in american history on the poor and middle class?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

Well, My thoughts very preliminarily are really several fold here.

1. I think that Roberts was wrong to side with the liberal wing of the court here, largely on the unequal taxation that this will now enshrine that the government has the right to do. So, the court today just wiped out a piece of the constitution in that regard.

2. The ruling has energized those who are and have been against this law from the begining, the group we saw in 2010 sweep elections. Romney, if his team is smart enough to take advantage of this will win November in a landslide on the anger of the 60% of Americans against this law.

3. Even though Obama said to George Snufolupogus in 2009 that 'no way was this a tax' and then repeated that over, and over, until they got in front of the court, now it is a tax. The largest tax on the middle class in history! Good job libs...$4000. to every middle class family estimated by the CBO.

4. The court, and Obama have just dropped the hammer on small business, in this time of anemic growth at best is plain stupid! Many now will drop Health Insurance offered to employees, and take the tax because it will be cheaper to do so. Or, they will go out of business all together under the weight of cost.


This was a fraud from the beginning, and remains a lie to this day that Obama has given us...I am saddened, but at the same time hopeful that America will wake up and stop the progressive nightmare.

I think you are grossly overestimating America's appetite for this issue to continue. The Cons managed to freeze the issue and convince people that perhaps Congress overstepped its bounds in passing this. They lost that one. Now that it has been sanctioned by the Supreme Court most Americans will wish to move on. Clinging to an old issue when there are so many ahead of us is likely to backfire. The passion of protest on this will wane.

Moreover, Romney, as the Cons nominee, is the least positioned politician in America to present challenge to this as he endorsed the concept both in MA and nationally. He even publicly endorsed the mandate as ACA was being debated. Romney's best shot to be POTUS is with a faltering economy with him positioned as guy with the business experience that understands this and can fix it. Virtually every other issue that he spends time on is that much less time he has promoting his strength. This simply is not a winning issue for the Romney campaign.

Sorry J-Mac. The Cons gave it a good shot. They came up short. I know its very difficult for Cons to look ahead, but its time to do so. Wallowing in the past, on this one, is also not a winning issue.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

No it's not. It definitely is not my country and that's why I just sent an email to the offices of both Massachusetts Senators asking how one goes about renouncing one's US Citizenship.

Hope they provide you with detailed instructions.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

If that is to have any effect at all then the "tax penalty" has to be greater than the cost of compliance.

the penalty was low for now because it needs to be popular.

Same with a tax on labor. When the government first sought this new power, they made sure people understood it was to hammer those rich greedy bastards. The concept of the every day working man having his money taken before he was even payed was never dreamed of initially, and never would of seen the light of day
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

Please — you better check who's playing the race card here. :roll:

Identity politics are perfectly legitimate. The race card doesn't matter. The country is breaking down along racial lines politically.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

Granted that I havent read through the entire strata of responses, has anyone referenced all those waivers? They are waivers against a tax yes? You cant apply a tax selectively or grant waivers selectively. Are those waivers constitutional? If they are not, what then? There are literally millions of people affected by those waivers as well.

Then we move onto the argument of taxing whatever the heck you want, from cell phones (you need them to call for emergency care, as an argument) to green policies (has to have a certain MPG) or lulz here but how about taxing for NOT having a gun for self protection. All of those could be applied from this ruling. This didnt stop the problems, its just the beginning of the mess we are going to have to sort out, this ruling was probably the largest since Wickard---which was somewhat derailed by this ruling in an odd way by sidestepping into the tax area and not ruling on the limitation of the commerce clause.

the waivers are given to corporations (shocking, I know). Individuals who have taxes levied against them do not have an ability to get a waiver

The waivers given were to corporations that needed more time in order to get a new insurance policy for their employees that fit all of the criteria listed out in the healthcare bill. They were temporary waivers. They are going to have to comply just as people are going to have to comply. Unless there are other waivers that I am unaware of.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

Who do you think pays for it when an uninsured person goes to the emergency room and doesn't pay the bill?

In a perfect world everyone would pay for themselves, and they could all afford it happily, and it would rain champagne. It's not a perfect world. We did manage to pass a bill that does insure a large group of those that didn't previously had it which will allow many people to actually practice preventative medicine and such, which will save some money.

That's a nice theory. It's just not reality.

What world are you living in? Save who some money? Have you paid any attention whatsoever to insurance premiums SINCE Obamacare was passed? They have risen, on average, of 18% PER YEAR. That's faster than it was before they passed Obamacare....

Who's saving any money? My health insurance went up 20% this year, WITHOUT A SINGLE CLAIM AGAINST IT. And people with pre-existing conditions are already accepted under Obamacare. Well, minors are right now, and adults will be completely phased in by 2014. But what are insurance companies doing????? Raising premiums faster than they ever have before.

Who's saving money???? What freakin planet do you live on????

The problem with the left, is they have great intentions, but they blatantly ignore the real consequences of their actions. We passed obamacare, and liberals said it would "lower insurance premiums". REally? Then why are the insurance companies raising premiums by a clip of 18% annually on average? Obamacare doesn't prevent them from doing it obviously. And if it does, how long before private insurance companies go out of business? Or need a government bailout like AIG, or Chevy?

You people are so blind. THis is nothing more than paving a superhighway to single payer health care. That's what the left wants, because they think it works. Go take your ass to Canada and see if you like it better there than here. Here, you don't wait 6 months for a hip replacement. There you do. Here, my doctor decides my course of treatment. THere, a government exchange does. You liberals want the government deciding medical procedures your insurance will cover, and which ones are off limits? Keep that in mind for when the pendulum swings back to Conservative Tea party types. If the government can force you to buy insurance, they can also force you to carry a baby against your will.

Liberals never contemplate the alternatives. They are fools, rushing towards more and more dependency.

You say it's not a perfect world. That's correct. It's not. But your example of a perfect world was a world where everyone would pay for themselves. You think Obamacare gets us closer to "everyone paying for themselves"????? Geeez.....Obamacare gets us to the doorstep of the government taking over healthcare alltogether. Single Payer. That eliminates YOUR FREEDOM to decide your own treatment. It eliminates YOUR FREEDOM to choose your own doctor. It eliminates YOUR FREEDOM to choose a certain cancer drug if the government refuses to pay for it ( like they do in England and Canada). That's right, the best cancer medicines, which are covered by private health insurance here in America, are rejected in England and Canada, and other countries as well. You ready for that? You're gonna get your aweful wish. Fools.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

If that is to have any effect at all then the "tax penalty" has to be greater than the cost of compliance.
Actually, it would have to be about equal to the cost of compliance. Either you purchase insurance or the cost will be billed to you without any additional benefits of insurance, people will then purchase insurance instead.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

Good to know you only came to complain about "race bomb" after I came in - and not you know - the last 20 pages where Albert Di Salvo has been making this into a race issue.

Your hypocrisy gets thicker every day and I love to expose it. :)

I'm with Al Sharpton on this. Identity politics is a tenet of leftist doctrine. I'm simply playing by the rules. Race is a perfectly legitimate organizing principle politically. That's why about 90% of African Americans vote monolithically. That's completely legitimate, and the same organizing principle is available to all American identity groups.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

I think you are grossly overestimating America's appetite for this issue to continue.

I think we should make this issue continue. This version of health care is nothing of the sort. It's government forced insurance buying, the insurance companies are going to make out like bandits here; all sponsored through government force. But there is an issue with our health care. Americans pay more for and have less access to healthcare than other industrialized nations. There is a way to use government to properly address that. But it will require an intelligent conversation, we can't get side tracked into partisan bickering like this thread has become. If the liberals and the conservatives could just disengage their mouths long enough to THINK about the problem, we may be able to actually move in a productive direction.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

Go back and see who the first person was to bring up race in this thread. It wasn't a liberal.

There is nothing wrong with using race for political puroposes. The left does it all the time. What goes around comes around.
 
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