• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758, 1205]

Status
Not open for further replies.
..OK, Canadians, I know that there are some on this board. How many would trade health care systems with the USA?

I know of more than a few Canadians who REFUSE to even vacation to the USA for a weekend, such as driving down to NYC or Boston from Montreal or Toronto, simply due to our healthcare system.

the danger of being injured & sick, and having to fork over tens of thousands of dollars, is just too much to bare.
 
Every Canadian is off work for 9.5 weeks every year due to having to wait for health care?

No kidding?

Then, Canadians should be chomping at the bit to get a US style of health care, correct?

OK, Canadians, I know that there are some on this board. How many would trade health care systems with the USA?


Speaking for myself, never in a million years.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Problem is, our private health system is 100% more expensive than government run systems elsewhere. And our 100% socialist health system -- the VA -- is more efficient than our private system.

Have you ever experienced a VA hospital? It's not 100% socialized by the way.
 
Every Canadian is off work for 9.5 weeks every year due to having to wait for health care?

No kidding?

Then, Canadians should be chomping at the bit to get a US style of health care, correct?

OK, Canadians, I know that there are some on this board. How many would trade health care systems with the USA?

My aunt in Edmonton had a form of cancer. The Canadian health care system diagnosed it after she became sick. She died while she was waiting in line for treatment. She should have come to America for surgery instead of waiting in Canada.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Ah yes, of course! Is it a tax or not? Well, it's a choice, so how can a choice be a tax? Except that the choice is rather limited: you either get health insurance or get taxed. Hmm, but was the mandate designed to encourage people to get insurance or just penalize those who don't? Big Government or choice! Let the debate, I mean the hilarity, ensue!

You have a choice to get a driver's license.

You have a choice to purchase a car.

You have a choice of where you wish to reside, specifically, once you reach adulthood.

As such, as a licensed driver with a vehicle properly registed in the state where you reside, your state likely mandates that you have auto insurance (mimimum coverage: liability).

Q: What happens if you get pulled over by your local police or state highway patrol and they discover you don't have auto insurance?

A: You get a ticket that indicates a FINE you have to pay unless you can show proof of auto insurance.

Well, the same thing now applies with those individuals who don't buy health insurance but can afford to purchase it. As myself and others have been saying all along, this health care issue (which is really a health insurance issue) is jurisdicational. The states control their roads and highways and, as such, have the right (state's rights, folks) to impose a fine on those drivers who don't have auto insurance. Since insurance is part of interstate commerce AND health care expenditures have dramatically increased over the years particularly for the taxpayer by virtue of:

1) uncompensated care (hospitals)
2) Mecicare expenses (i.e., prescription drugs, treatment, services, etc.) (federal government)
3) Subsidized insurance premiums employer's pay on behalf of their employees (federal government)
4) Medicaid costs (states)

...it stands to reason that the federal government would eventually step-up to do what neither the private sector nor the states were willing or able to do which is find a way to bring down the cost of health care nationwide (or atleast try) and increase access to health care.

Back to the jurisdictional argument, here's an article from the Insurance Journal dated January 2006 on how Kansas state legislature determined to handly uninsured motorist in their state. Notice the clear similarities between the "fine" imposed for the uninsured at the state-level and the "penalty" that would now be imposed at the federal-level for the insured where health insurance is concerned. More specifically, note the argument Republicans within he Kansas state legislature uses and see if it's any different from the argument currently used in the health care debate.
 
I know of more than a few Canadians who REFUSE to even vacation to the USA for a weekend, such as driving down to NYC or Boston from Montreal or Toronto, simply due to our healthcare system.

the danger of being injured & sick, and having to fork over tens of thousands of dollars, is just too much to bare.

I am lucky because I am covered through work for about a million (what does that amount to? A broken leg?) I kid, yet cannot get over how much more expensive your healthcare is. In any event, when I was not covered through my work, I usually got Blue Cross Insurance just in case when visiting the US.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Have you ever experienced a VA hospital? It's not 100% socialized by the way.

No, I haven't been a patient in a VA hospital but I've visited a few. Also have a friend who was a VA radiologist.

And the VA is absolutely the most socialist health system in the world. The doctors work for the government, the hospitals and all the equipment are owned by the government, the care is paid for by the government, the meds are paid for by the government ... It doesn't get any more socialist than that.
 
Last edited:
My aunt in Edmonton had a form of cancer. The Canadian health care system diagnosed it after she became sick. She died while she was waiting in line for treatment. She should have come to America for surgery instead of waiting in Canada.

If she would have been proactive, she might have survived. The wait did not kill her because we don't have long wait periods for advanced cancer.
 
I know of more than a few Canadians who REFUSE to even vacation to the USA for a weekend, such as driving down to NYC or Boston from Montreal or Toronto, simply due to our healthcare system.

the danger of being injured & sick, and having to fork over tens of thousands of dollars, is just too much to bare.

OK, there's one response. How about it, Canuks? Ready to trade health care systems with your southern neighbor? Anyone, anyone????
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Nope, I'd do what I could to pay it off. Again the whole idea of personal responsibility seems to escape you even though i've mentioned it several times already.

Unfortunately, with your salary "doing what you could to pay it off" simply isn't enough if you incur a major medical expense. So what you'll ACTUALLY do is stick someone else with the bill.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Are you kidding me? The cost of ObamaCare, as allowed by the SCOTUS, without requiring MANDATED increased Medicaid "contributions" by the states will be HUGE, since the states NOW do not have to PAY FOR 1/2 of that amount.

The states never did have to pay for half of the expansion. The federal government is willing to foot the bill for 100% of the expansion for the first years, and 90% thereafter.
 
If she would have been proactive, she might have survived. The wait did not kill her because we don't have long wait periods for advanced cancer.

The cancer wasn't diagnosed in sufficient time. She died during the expedited waiting period.
 
Every Canadian is off work for 9.5 weeks every year due to having to wait for health care?

No kidding?

Then, Canadians should be chomping at the bit to get a US style of health care, correct?

OK, Canadians, I know that there are some on this board. How many would trade health care systems with the USA?

Read the article, it doesn't say that your stretching it out of context.
 
Unfortunately, with your salary "doing what you could to pay it off" simply isn't enough if you incur a major medical expense. So what you'll ACTUALLY do is stick someone else with the bill.

Yeah, the way Medicaid and Medicare do. Isn't this what you're promoting?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Would you please point out the provisions of the legislation that were passed through the Budget Reconciliation process and the provisions that weren't passed through that process? Thanks.

The bulk of the bill was passed through the standard process. This includes nearly all of the major provisions of the law. Wikipedia has a good rundown of all the provisions in the original bill (which were NOT passed by reconciliation) here:
Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The changes that were passed by reconciliation were known as the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010, and can be found here:
Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
The National Bureau of Economic Research

Comparing the U.S. and Canadian Health Care Systems

"the use of cancer screenings including mammograms and PAP smears (for women), PSA screenings (for men), and colonoscopies. They find that the use of these tests is more frequent in the U.S. - for example, 86 percent of U.S. women ages 40 to 69 have had a mammogram, compared to 73 percent of Canadian women. The U.S. also is endowed with many more MRI machines and CT scanners per capita. The authors find evidence of the possible effectiveness of higher levels of screening and equipment by examining mortality rates in both countries for five types of cancer that could be affected by early detection and treatment. Because the incidence of cancer may differ for reasons other than the health care system, they compare the ratio of the mortality rate to the incidence rate - a lower ratio corresponds to a lower death rate for those with the disease. They find that the ratio is lower in the U.S. for all types of cancer except cervical cancer, suggesting that the U.S. health care system is generally more successful in the detection and treatment of cancer."


"The authors also examine wait times, which are often cited as a problem in Canada. Though comparative information is limited, available data indicate much longer waits in Canada than in the U.S. to consult a specialist and to have non-emergency surgery like knee re-placements"


And in some instances both countries are the same.
 
Last edited:
That is pretty much what happened to my dad right here in the US.....

And I'm sure many others in both the Canadian and American system. That doesn't prove squat.

BTW, sorry about your Dad, Redress.
 
Yeah, the way Medicaid and Medicare do. Isn't this what you're promoting?

That's a far more efficient way of paying the costs for those who can't afford it, then sticking the provider and/or people who do have insurance with the bill. It discourages free riding and encourages people to get covered. If everyone had health insurance then there would be far fewer health-related bankruptcies...and the only way to get everyone health insurance is to subsidize it for those who couldn't otherwise afford it.

Anyone who can't afford health insurance ranting about "personal responsibility" and how they don't want a handout is deluding themselves. The minute they get sick they'll be begging for a handout.
 
The National Bureau of Economic Research

Comparing the U.S. and Canadian Health Care Systems

"the use of cancer screenings including mammograms and PAP smears (for women), PSA screenings (for men), and colonoscopies. They find that the use of these tests is more frequent in the U.S. - for example, 86 percent of U.S. women ages 40 to 69 have had a mammogram, compared to 73 percent of Canadian women. The U.S. also is endowed with many more MRI machines and CT scanners per capita. The authors find evidence of the possible effectiveness of higher levels of screening and equipment by examining mortality rates in both countries for five types of cancer that could be affected by early detection and treatment. Because the incidence of cancer may differ for reasons other than the health care system, they compare the ratio of the mortality rate to the incidence rate - a lower ratio corresponds to a lower death rate for those with the disease. They find that the ratio is lower in the U.S. for all types of cancer except cervical cancer, suggesting that the U.S. health care system is generally more successful in the detection and treatment of cancer."


"The authors also examine wait times, which are often cited as a problem in Canada. Though comparative information is limited, available data indicate much longer waits in Canada than in the U.S. to consult a specialist and to have non-emergency surgery like knee re-placements"

I think the difference is we only do these procedures when needed. In the American system, it's done not only because it's needed but because hospitals and clinics can make more money by sending patients to have thee test unnecessarily.
 
Yep. Same with my dad, Redress. He waited too long to get the initial diagnosis. He was dead in six weeks.

It is a good representation of why using anecdote is not an effective argument. Literally billions of people receive health care in the world every year, there are good stories and bad stories. My step-sister was killed by a doctor's mistake, right here is the US(Needed a catheter run into her heart while giving birth, the catheter went out the wall of the artery running to heart, then back in, then out again, then in and damaged wall of heart).
 
I think the difference is we only do these procedures when needed. In the American system, it's done not only because it's needed but because hospitals and clinics can make more money by sending patients to have thee test unnecessarily.

Or the "hospitals and clinics" are afraid they'll have their pants sued off.
 
See reply 1876.

Speaking for myself, never in a million years.

That's the response I usually get to that question from Canadians, Australians, anyone who has UHC. Any dissenting opinions from Canadians, or are we just going to hear about Canadian waiting periods from people who don't live there?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom