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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758, 1205]

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post
    You can bet on that. As long as companies can save money by dumping health insurance plans, they will.
    They did that before, too. So now the difference is that there's somewhere else to go.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    You will probably be sued if you have money and refuse to pay.
    So tell me again how the opt-outters are screwing The People? It doesn't sound like they have a way to simply evade all personal medical costs. Comparatively, it's by far the Medicaid and Medicare beneficiaries who are doing the most amount of screwing.

    But middle class people don't have near enough money to cover a serious injury or illness. If they did they wouldn't be middle class.
    So whether people are insured or not is irrelevant, as either way the cost of their care will be transferred.

    That is the cost of living in a civilized society.
    The cost of living in a civilized society is to be on the hook for everyone's potentially limitless health care needs when it's clear that as a nation we cannot afford it? When the problem is financing a need that exceeds the ability to keep paying for it, the "cost of living in a civilized society" argument is an utter copout.

    That's like me spending myself and my wife into bankruptcy and, in response to her protest, shrugging and saying "that's the cost of being in a happy marriage with me."

    And there is some value in knowing that no matter how wrong things may go for you, at least you won't be left on the street to rot from cancer.
    Actually, the reality is that no matter how much of other people's money the system lets you siphon to pay for your personal medical needs before you die, you're still going to die and rot anyway.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 06-29-12 at 03:59 PM.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post
    Quite true, I'm sure management will still have health care in their packages.
    Naturally. Have to give them tons of money and access to the company jet to attract the right talent! Somehow this never gets applied to teachers...

    When the economy is bad, companies can more easily get away with dropping health care plans because people need the job. When things are better, people will have more options, and therefore will have the option to not work for the crappy company who dropped its health care plan.

    One thing that bothers me about this is how half the right-wing doesn't even seem upset about the ruling because they see it as another weapon to use in election season. This tells me they care less about the content of the laws and more about how they can "win."
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758, 1205]

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    So tell me again how the opt-outters are screwing The People? It doesn't sound like they have an easy way to evade medical costs.



    So whether people are insured or not is irrelevant, as either way the cost of their care will be transferred.



    The cost of living in a civilized society is to be on the hook for everyone's potentially limitless health care needs when it's clear that as a nation we cannot afford it? When the problem is financing a need that exceeds the ability to keep paying for it, the "cost of living in a civilized society" argument is an utter copout.

    [quoteAnd there is some value in knowing that no matter how wrong things may go for you, at least you won't be left on the street to rot from cancer.
    Actually, the reality is that no matter how much of other people's money you summon to pay for your personal medical needs before you die, you're still going to die and rot anyway.

    Actually the reality is that if we can't provide decent healthcare for our citizens then we must resign ourself to the fact that we are a failed society. You seem quite content with failure.
    Last edited by iguanaman; 06-29-12 at 04:08 PM.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Naturally. Have to give them tons of money and access to the company jet to attract the right talent! Somehow this never gets applied to teachers...
    Teachers are a protected class. There are some great ones and some horrid ones, the sad thing is when it comes to raises it's about time in, tenure, and not results. I would love to see bad teachers encouraged to leave the profession by stagnation and great teachers encouraged to stay by the same economic pressures. I'm not sure of the best way to judge merit, but I'm also not paid for that.

    When the economy is bad, companies can more easily get away with dropping health care plans because people need the job. When things are better, people will have more options, and therefore will have the option to not work for the crappy company who dropped its health care plan.
    I see where the theory is in that. However don't forget that there are always underperformers that will gladly take that job, for the lower level jobs it's not a great enough amount of differentiation in results.

    One thing that bothers me about this is how half the right-wing doesn't even seem upset about the ruling because they see it as another weapon to use in election season. This tells me they care less about the content of the laws and more about how they can "win."
    Partisans on both sides are looking at the politics, that's all they do. What you are seeing in the people who pay attention is the details, most of those from the right and left who care about the fallout don't do so to win, we are both trying to protect something, the right doesn't want a blank check to taxation, or a back door to regulation and the constitution, and the left wants their agenda. Not really anything new.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758, 1205]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    its not a traditional tax.


    Maybe you can point out where he said except for non traditional taxes?
    "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Cool, but you're forgetting one thing. We have an actual law on our side...the most sweeping piece of economic legislation since Medicare. All you have are silly hypotheticals.
    The owners of Dredd Scott also had the Supreme Court on their side. That decision helped precipitate the Civil War.

    The law is illegitimate because its passage was induced through fraud. Congress debated whether the Mandate was a tax and specifically rejected that basis because Congress didn't want to be held accountable for raising taxes. President Obama specifically said the Mandate wasn't a tax. Then President Obama's lawyers went to court and argued the Mandate was valid as an exercise of the power of taxation. That's called fraud in the inducement.

    That fraud is what ensures that the furor won't die. The flames of controversy will also be fanned by increased costs, declining quality and clear cut rationing. The line of causation to Obamacare will be readily apparent, and will impact white seniors particularly.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758, 1205]

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post
    [vide.com/watch?v=UJVMWjTQh_Y[/video]

    Maybe you can point out where he said except for non traditional taxes?
    raising taxes= raising marginal income tax rates.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

    Quote Originally Posted by missypea View Post
    In all this despair, let us not forget that companies still need to attract the best employees they can.
    You mean that employers don't just hire people out of pity or that they got their taxes cut? That employers actually NEED their workers to make a profit? Where did you hear that?

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    They did that before, too. So now the difference is that there's somewhere else to go.
    General percentage by level paid by consumer
    (through deductibles, copays and coinsurance)

    Bronze Level – 40%
    Silver Level – 30%
    Gold Level – 20%
    Platinum Level – 10%

    What kind of coverage will the plans sold through the health insurance exchanges include?
    Except the coverage ain't so great. For those who can barely afford the Bronze coverage, how can they afford to pay 40% of the health care bills?
    "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

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