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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758, 1205]

  1. #1761
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758, 1205]

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertzz View Post
    But they have no authority under the constitution for the individual mandate! So individual mandates are unconstitutional. They confirmed this yesterday.
    Correct. According to the Supreme Court, it would be unconstitutional for them to pass a law saying "Buy health insurance or we'll put you in jail." However, they also said that this isn't an individual mandate because you aren't being forced to buy health insurance. It's perfectly legitimate if you decide to pay the tax instead of buying health insurance.

    But because this doesn't have any consequence of Congress beyond its authority to tax, it is allowed. What they're saying is that rules passed by Congress do not have to be constitutional so long as the consequence of breaking the rules is a tax.
    That isn't at all what they said. If Congress has the power to do A, B, C, and D, they can pass a law that only exercises power B. They don't *also* have to make sure they exercise power A, C, and D in the same law.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758, 1205]

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    If you forego insurance but have money and incur big medical expenses, you're billed for them. What happens if you have money but still refuse to pay?
    You will probably be sued if you have money and refuse to pay. But middle class people don't have near enough money to cover a serious injury or illness. If they did they wouldn't be middle class.

    What screws over fellow Americans is that there's any way at all to get oodles of health care at no cost.
    That is the cost of living in a civilized society. And there is some value in knowing that no matter how wrong things may go for you, at least you won't be left on the street to rot from cancer.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    There's about to be a lot less. PPACA mandates that they spend at least 80-85% of revenue on health care. If they don't, they have to rebate their customers for the difference.That only leaves 15-20% for everything else...administrative costs, overhead, profits, etc. They aren't going to have much money left to bribe politicians.
    I would like to thank you also for all the information youve provided...Ive kept mostly quiet because I dont know enough but I have been reading...and if this is a fact then its a good thing as far as im concerned, they will concentrate more on patients than keeping care from patients for more profit

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758, 1205]

    As soon as I saw the domain name I decided not to click on your link. Do you have anything remotely substantive or just rants from right-wing websites?
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

    Quote Originally Posted by missypea View Post
    Oh come on, fred. Let's get this thread back on track. Whaddya say?

    What are your thoughts about the ACA?
    Fair enough.

    Other libertarians will hate me for this: but I'm all for a single-payer system, run at the national level, approved at the state level.

    But the ACA... no way.

    What the Supreme Court has done yesterday is said that the rules Congress sets does not have to be constitutional. I.E. the individual mandate was not found constitutional under the commerce clause or the necessary & proper clause. But so long as Congress does not use punishments beyond its taxing authorities, that any law they set forth is allowed, whether it is constitutional or not.

    This is so backwards I don't know where to begin. I'd happily argue this is not a direct tax and that Congress does not have the authority to impose it. But even that seems to be getting too far into the argument. The fact that a law does not have to be constitutional so long as the consequence is only a tax seems absurd to me.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758, 1205]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    As soon as I saw the domain name I decided not to click on your link. Do you have anything remotely substantive or just rants from right-wing websites?
    it's actually a pretty decent article.

    I don't agree with the conclusion. I mean, it would be great if we finally help politicians feet to the fire and make them deal with us honestly and openly, but I don't think that is the role of scotus.

    instead, it is up to the voters to show them that we don't tolerate these lies and distortions.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    I would like to thank you also for all the information youve provided...Ive kept mostly quiet because I dont know enough but I have been reading...and if this is a fact then its a good thing as far as im concerned, they will concentrate more on patients than keeping care from patients for more profit
    It is a good thing, and a lot of folks are going to get checks or premium rebates this year as a result.

    Later this summer, nearly 13 million Americans will receive $1.1 billion in rebates from insurance companies — an average of $151 for each family policy — because of the law’s requirement that at least 80 percent of insurance premiums paid by consumers must go for medical care or quality improvement measures. Insurers that don’t meet the standard must pay a rebate to their policyholders by Aug. 1 for the difference, either in cash or by a reduction in premiums.

    Read more here: Ruling impacts millions of health care consumers - Florida - MiamiHerald.com
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758, 1205]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Correct. According to the Supreme Court, it would be unconstitutional for them to pass a law saying "Buy health insurance or we'll put you in jail." However, they also said that this isn't an individual mandate because you aren't being forced to buy health insurance. It's perfectly legitimate if you decide to pay the tax instead of buying health insurance.



    That isn't at all what they said. If Congress has the power to do A, B, C, and D, they can pass a law that only exercises power B. They don't *also* have to make sure they exercise power A, C, and D in the same law.

    I see what you are saying. Thank you for explaining. So from the court's perspective, this is a tax, which you can avoid by buying healthcare. It seems it was me who was looking at this backwards...

    I can even see where that is technically constitutional and from that point, up to the people to decide who is making these laws.

    I do insist that this opens the door for Congress to pass nearly any rule that it would like, under the idea that they will tax you unless you yield to their demands. And that prospect is VERY scary to me. And that Congress' ability to tax should be limited to direct taxes to avoid this potential future calamity.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758, 1205]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    As soon as I saw the domain name I decided not to click on your link. Do you have anything remotely substantive or just rants from right-wing websites?
    Althouse: How Chief Justice Roberts reenvisioned the individual mandate as a tax... and how he avoided the question of congressional accountability.

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertzz View Post
    Fair enough.

    Other libertarians will hate me for this: but I'm all for a single-payer system, run at the national level, approved at the state level.

    But the ACA... no way.

    What the Supreme Court has done yesterday is said that the rules Congress sets does not have to be constitutional. I.E. the individual mandate was not found constitutional under the commerce clause or the necessary & proper clause. But so long as Congress does not use punishments beyond its taxing authorities, that any law they set forth is allowed, whether it is constitutional or not.

    This is so backwards I don't know where to begin. I'd happily argue this is not a direct tax and that Congress does not have the authority to impose it. But even that seems to be getting too far into the argument. The fact that a law does not have to be constitutional so long as the consequence is only a tax seems absurd to me.
    They didn't say a law doesn't have to be constitutional as long as the only consequence is a tax. For example:

    - They can't pass a law taxing me for not buying a Bible. (1st Amendment)
    - They can't pass a law taxing me for not contributing to a political party. (All states are guaranteed a republican form of government.)
    - They can't pass a law taxing me for being a certain race or gender. (14th Amendment)
    - They can't pass a law taxing me for voting (24th Amendment)
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