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Thread: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758, 1205]

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yes. Yes I am saying that. And I have yet to meet an opponent of the ACA who actually understands what it does. But don't feel bad...even Justice Scalia didn't understand it. He literally used a FOX News talking point about the "Cornhusker Kickback" during oral arguments. This is remarkable for two reasons: 1) It had nothing to do with the legal arguments, and 2) It doesn't actually exist in the law because it was removed.

    Unfortunately, most opponents of the ACA have misconceptions of what the bill does that are much more substantive than just a silly little pork-barrel project.



    HHS regulations have not all been written yet. The ACA was an act of Congress with which I'm quite familiar, and which deals with the high-level regulations.



    And so the costs will be transferred from those who can't afford health insurance to those who can. Boom. What now?
    Medical care is about 1/6th of the total ecomony, so it would follow that its cost, if spread evenly, would be about 1/6th of each person's expenses. The median annual income in the USA is $39,300 for an individual and $44,400 for a household. What many people SAY that they want, is for that cost to be spread "fairly". That would mean that $6550 for an individual or $7400 for a household would be spent on medical care each year. Put into monthly payment terms, that is about $546 for an individual or $617 for a household. The trick is to get that much paid for without actually seaming to require it. You can play with those numbers in many ways, but that is reality as I see it. No current GOV'T medical care program costs LESS than the average of $7,400 per person annual cost, why do you think ObamaCare will? Why was ObamaCare not made "live" when it was enacted, other than to hide the REAL COST?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Before it was passed, if you couldn't afford health insurance you were SOL. By 2014 if you can't afford health insurance, you'll either get free Medicaid or a subsidy on the health insurance exchange, depending on your income. And insurers won't be able to discriminate against you based on preexisting conditions.
    You did not answer my question. Your previous post you claimed 'costs will be transferred from those who can't afford health insurance to those who can' but now you claim 'if you couldn't afford health insurance you were SOL'. Which is it?

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758, 1205]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    its a penalty, not a tax. taxes are not punitive.
    What? The SCOTUS decision used the FACT that it was a TAX to make it "constitutional".
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758, 1205]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    What? The SCOTUS decision used the FACT that it was a TAX to make it "constitutional".
    That's incorrect. They also interpret it as not a tax, for ant-injunction, what does that do to your claim of "FACT"?

    They detail it all here why that's irrelevant:

    Supreme Court Health Care Decision: When A Tax Is Not A Tax | WBUR & NPR

    "At first glance, the idea of using two tests to answer the same question – 'Is this a tax?' – is counterintuitive. But Chief Justice Roberts' opinion explains the reason for the distinction: the Constitution imposes limits upon the Congress, and it would undermine those limits if Congress could circumvent them merely by altering the label on a piece of legislation. That is why for purposes of determining the scope of the taxing power, the label does not matter. However, the AIA is Congressional policy, and so the key question in that context is whether Congress intended for that policy to apply in a particular case. If Congress wants the AIA to apply, it knows to use language echoing that statute. Similarly, if Congress does not want the AIA to apply, it will use different language, and courts should respect that judgment."

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    If an insurance company can not use RISK to set rates, then why have insurance companies at all?
    They can still use risk to set rates, it just has to be for the general population instead of specific people. So for example, they can take the risk of an average person needing treatment for childhood leukemia, and adding that risk into the premiums for everyone. What they can't do is discriminate against people who already have those conditions. If they could, then insurance would simply be unaffordable for them.

    Do you favor this for auto and homeowners insurance as well?
    No.

    If not WHY not?
    Several reasons:
    1) Those things are far less important to the economy than health insurance. So who cares?

    2) Health insurance is an absolute necessity, because you will be financially ruined if you need it and don't have it. No one's forcing you to own a home or a car.

    3) If you are considered a high risk for home insurance or car insurance, it's to a large degree due to your own behavior. If you are considered a high risk for health insurance, it's much more difficult to make that connection, especially for age or preexisting conditions.

    4) You are inherently able to afford home insurance or car insurance, if you could afford the home/car in the first place. If you aren't, then sell your damn home/car and buy a cheaper one. You can't do that with your health, and there are many people who ARE unable to afford health insurance.

    5) If your house is damaged and you don't have insurance, the only one who loses out is you. If your car is damaged and you don't have collision insurance, the only one who loses out is you. If you need health care and you don't have health insurance, the taxpayers pick up the bill. This is also the same reason that most states require at least SOME car insurance...not for you or your car, but to pay the medical bills of other people if you cause an accident.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Before it was passed, if you couldn't afford health insurance you were SOL. By 2014 if you can't afford health insurance, you'll either get free Medicaid or a subsidy on the health insurance exchange, depending on your income. And insurers won't be able to discriminate against you based on preexisting conditions.
    Medicaid is NOT free. Medicaid is a 50/50 split of state/federal TAX money, the states, unlike the federal gov't must actually TAX their residents to get the money, the federal gov't simply borrows it. For every ONE that will be compelled to BUY their own medical care insurance, there will be THREE that the TAXPAYERS will be compelled to support (either by subsidized exchanges or Medicaid). Adding 30 to 45 million NEW people at an average cost of $7,400 annually is not FREE, which is why ObamaCare was not made "live" until 2014.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I'm not going to bother reading nearly 1500 posts, but someone tell me if I get how this thread has gone, correct:

    Many of those on the right are whining and crying and making idiotic claims that this will destroy the US.
    Many of those on the left are laughing and rejoicing and making idiotic claims that this will save the US.

    How'd I do?
    Half right

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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    No current GOV'T medical care program costs LESS than the average of $7,400 per person annual cost, why do you think ObamaCare will?
    Every single country in the world with universal health care spends less per capita on health care than the United States. And although Obamacare doesn't get us to universal health care, it does bring us closer and puts into place the cost controls that have been successful in every other developed country.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    You did not answer my question. Your previous post you claimed 'costs will be transferred from those who can't afford health insurance to those who can' but now you claim 'if you couldn't afford health insurance you were SOL'. Which is it?
    Those two statements mean the same thing. Prior to the ACA you had no recourse if you couldn't afford health insurance; now the costs will be transferred to the public, as they should be.
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    Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758, 1205]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    What? The SCOTUS decision used the FACT that it was a TAX to make it "constitutional".
    i think they are wrong. taxes cannot be waved by purchasing something.

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