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Thread: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

  1. #81
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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    I have never gotten the AZ immigration law. What is the purpose for arresting someone? Because they are suspected of committing a crime and its the FIRST STEP in a process to hold the suspected criminal accountable, right? The state of Arizona has absolutely no legal structure in place to indict, try and carry out immigration law violations. The state AZ prosecutors did not and cannot have trials for people expected to illegal immigration. So what do they do with the people they arrest, if they are here illegally in the first place? ? Catch and release anybody who looks Mexican. Arrest them, make them spend the night in jail then let them go in the morning. The AZ courts can't hold a trial on immigration law violations. They can't deport anyone since state governments have no relationship with Mexican or whatever country counterparts. All this law did IMHO was make police harassment of Hispanics legal and told the fastest growing minority in America who will eventually be citizens as well as their children, grand-children and great-grand-children to never vote Republican under any circumstance. Gotta be the dumbest law passed in America in my lifetime.
    Illegals were/are doing a tremendous damage to the state by doing a tremedous damage to American citizens living in AZ.

    The fed did nothing.

    So AZ tried to defend itself against the onslaught, tried to take care of itself when those who were supposed to be doing that job refused, and they tried to call attention to their plight.

    Well, that last part worked .. and to the degree that the most controversial part of the AZ law was upheld.

    I'm pretty sure AZ never expected the SCOTUS to let them arrest and deport etc., the federal government's constitutional job.

    But it would not surprise me if the detain and question and report to the fed part that was upheld -- historically a part of inter-agency law enforcement cooperation -- was the real objective all along, the validation that inter-agency reporting as a threat to illegals is alive and well and that the state and its local affiliates do have communication power to find and report illegals so that the fed has a record of who to pursue, and that the SCOTUS's constitutional concurrence of that make it clear that such efforts of AZ state and local law enforcement personnel could not be "overriden" or "ignored" by some federal wing-nut in pandering power at the moment.

    Smart, really, all things considered.
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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    So essentially the SCOTUS upheld the only part of the law that anyone was talking about?
    Yup. As for the rest, though I'd like to see it happen, it really is up to the feds to decide criminalization on this issue.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    wait, SCOTUS decided that its unConstitutionsal for there to be a state law making it illegal for unlawful immigrants to work?

    they are saying that illegal aliens have the right to work in the USA???
    That's the way I interpreted it, too. That makes no sense at all.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Originally Posted by Thunder
    wait, SCOTUS decided that its unConstitutionsal for there to be a state law making it illegal for unlawful immigrants to work?

    they are saying that illegal aliens have the right to work in the USA???
    Yes and no, they're saying that determination can only be made at the federal level. It's up to the feds to determine criminality of illegals working.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    There are a greater number of legal American citizens of Hispanic and Native American heritage who will be subject to being stopped and questioned about their citizenship based merely on suspicion.
    And, yes, we most certainly disagree as to your quantification.

    You say "a greater number".

    I say it will be a teeny tiny lesser number than you state.

    You earlier said that it would be, in effect, a one-for-one stopping and questioning of American citizens for each of the 20 million illegals in America.

    I'm saying, no, that's a gross exaggeration, made for ideologically motivated hyperbole effect.

    I'm saying that it likely won't be more than 1 in 10,000, or at best 2,000 Americans nation-wide of all races and appearances, if that, that will be stopped and questioned about their citizenship.

    And I'm saying that because law enforcement simply does not merely go on looks in a situation like this, and it's preposterous ideological posturing to say that they do.

    Law enforcement will also be looking at behavior and reflecting attitudes before detaining someone.

    So, knowing how law enforcement works, I see no basis for your extreme exaggerations, extreme exaggerations that merely function to create unjustified hysteria.

    And regarding your phrase "based merely on suspicion", last time I looked, "suspicion" in the eyes of law enforcement is exactly what a stop and momentary detaining in such a situation as this would logically, rationally be based upon, a justified suspicion based on multiple relevant criteria in the matter.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    I am a true American
    A true American citizen is opposed to illegal immigration as illegal immigration is a crime against fellow American citizens.

    No true American would support such a crime against their fellow American citizens, and any American who condones illegal immigration is a complict accomplice to the associated crimes, in effect, a Benedict Arnold to fellow American citizens, and to America itself.

    What part of that statement do you have a problem with?


    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    and given the lack of good reason to stop my relatives other than they resemble, in a broad and non-specific way (like gender, height, hair or lack of it) suspected illegals, they and I would not be thankful. Especially when children could be involved.
    If there is indeed "a lack of good reason" to stop anyone, I doubt that law enforcement will stop that individual(s).

    What makes you fear otherwise?

    As to your relatives being stopped, have you asked them if they would mind being momentarily stopped in an effort to stop the egregious crime against Americans that illegall immigration is, in the name of putting an end to the economy-killing prolem for millions of American citizens?

    Maybe they wouldn't mind at all.

    Or, maybe that one relative of yours is married .. to an illegal?!

    Regardless, the stop and detain activities of law enforcement is based on more than mere looks. By utilziing more than just looks they can stop and detain all ethnicities, as the problem isn't all about "Mexicans" as is ludirously accused, as illegal immigrants come from all over the world.

    Law enforcement knows what it's doing, obviously.

    No need to contrive hysteria where none exists.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    While you may be fine with it, doesn't make it right.
    And your paranoia doesn't make such fear-fantasies reality.

    Besides, again, people get stopped and detained all the time in America because for one rational reason or another they look, act, etc. like someone the police are searching for, and without either force or hundcuffs, after a few questions, the police thank them for their patience in attempting to find the real criminal and they go on their way.

    Americans who are oblivious to this reality of every-day law enforcement activity in hunting for the criminal either don't watch enough law-enforcement TV shows to know that it happens all the time, or are simply uninformed as to normal relevant occurrences in general.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    Revealing? In what way. I thought you were expressing an extreme view point or sarcasm about "Real Americans". My mistake.
    Your projection is meaningless.

    Your mistake which I "cleverly" called you on was about your error in understanding how law enforcement works and to also refute your call for hysteria in the face of an unreal fear.
    You don't trust Trump? Well, there's only one way to leverage him to do what's economically right for us all: Powerful American Political Alliance. Got courage?! .. and a mere $5.00?

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    A true American citizen is opposed to illegal immigration as illegal immigration is a crime against fellow American citizens.
    No true scotsman bases their arguments on fallacies.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post

    If there is indeed "a lack of good reason" to stop anyone, I doubt that law enforcement will stop that individual(s).

    What makes you fear otherwise?
    Oh ... maybe the history of such racist actions in the past few years could lead a more rational person to think arbitrary questioning of individuals will occur.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Arizona HB 2162
    On April 30, the Arizona legislature passed, and Governor Brewer signed, House Bill 2162, which modified the Act that had been signed a week earlier, with the amended text stating that "prosecutors would not investigate complaints based on race, color or national origin."[28] The new text also states that police may only investigate immigration status incident to a "lawful stop, detention, or arrest", lowers the original fine from a minimum of $500 to a maximum of $100,[26] and changes incarceration limits for first-time offenders from 6 months to 20 days.[10]
    Source is the wiki, which is appropriate for this.
    Last edited by clownboy; 06-25-12 at 03:44 PM.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    This part of the law was ruled invalid by today's decision. Arizona law enforcement can not detain individuals without approval of federal authorities.
    changes incarceration limits for first-time offenders from 6 months to 20 days.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    Illegals were/are doing a tremendous damage to the state by doing a tremedous damage to American citizens living in AZ.

    The fed did nothing.

    So AZ tried to defend itself against the onslaught, tried to take care of itself when those who were supposed to be doing that job refused, and they tried to call attention to their plight.

    Well, that last part worked .. and to the degree that the most controversial part of the AZ law was upheld.

    I'm pretty sure AZ never expected the SCOTUS to let them arrest and deport etc., the federal government's constitutional job.

    But it would not surprise me if the detain and question and report to the fed part that was upheld -- historically a part of inter-agency law enforcement cooperation -- was the real objective all along, the validation that inter-agency reporting as a threat to illegals is alive and well and that the state and its local affiliates do have communication power to find and report illegals so that the fed has a record of who to pursue, and that the SCOTUS's constitutional concurrence of that make it clear that such efforts of AZ state and local law enforcement personnel could not be "overriden" or "ignored" by some federal wing-nut in pandering power at the moment.

    Smart, really, all things considered.
    I don't think the Federal government was doing its job wrt immigration either, and not just Obama but Bush also. I just don't think a state government is appropriately empowered to enforce federal law, especially not immigration law. All a state can do is arrest the suspected illegal immigrant. Then what? The federal government has the INS to see each situation to completion. Arizona doesn't have the INS at its disposal so what was supposed to happen after the arrest?

    If Arizona is upset because the federal government won't act a better plan would be to sue the federal government for the state costs of illegal immigration and/or better still, repeal the 17th Amendment and go back to the way the Founding Fathers set the country up giving the state governments there due say in Washington. I'd even be okay with Arizona putting up their section of the fence on the Mexican border. I'm not saying there isn't a problem with illegal immigration because obviously there is. I just cannot see what the police were supposed to do with suspected illegal immigrants when they have no structure in place to process them once arrested.
    Last edited by Smeagol; 06-25-12 at 03:52 PM.

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