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Thread: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post

    I agree, so they WASTED their time and SOMEONE ELSE'S money to get a wrthless piece of paper. So now itis time to get real and work; good, honest, hard work and procude some good or provide some service to put a roof over their heads, clothes on their backs and food in their bellies. It is NOT time to loaf, whine and join OWS rllies asking for "help". This entire country (or at least one big part of it) has lost sight of reality. The USA is not suddenly a dream land that requires no more than WANTING a cushy desk job, to "earn" one. Holes still need digging, fences still need erecting, food still needs to be cooked and served, cars still break down, friut needs to be picked and all sorts of jobs STILL need doing, some are just plain, old fashioned, hard work. Life in the USA did NOT change because someone got a pice of paper SAYING that they are no worth too much to waste doing REAL work.
    You are correct, ttwtt.

    What is funny is the students who were involved in the OWS movement are the very last people whom any employer would want to hire. These people have an "entitlement" attitude and most of them have a bad atttude toward our "free enterprise" system. They are generally an unruly bunch who have no manners and no self-discipline.

    If you were an employer and you were looking for good, dependable employees, would you give this person a job?


    Last edited by James Cessna; 07-04-12 at 03:36 PM.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Somebody working at McDonalds generates way more value both for themselves and the economy than a migrant laborer. Are you saying that you think there are a large number of citizens who aren't qualified to work at a McDonalds? I'm certainly not proposing that we use a guest worker program to fill that tier of jobs. Not yet anyways. Some day, hopefully, the vast majority of our population will progress beyond service jobs and we'll have somebody fill those in too. But not yet.
    You are one hard headed dude. What I am saying is that picking fruit is HARDER than a McJob, a whole LOT harder. It is not easy indoor work, out of the elements, in a pristine, air conditioned store, it is back breaking, bending, stooping HARD ASS work, outside in the blazing hot sun, out among the bugs; THAT SHOULD pay at least 3x what that McJob pays PLUS provide free temporary housing since commuting to those jobs is not practical. These jobs would be IDEAL starting SEASONAL jobs for sinlgle HS and college kids to get some money together and good work experience.

    My first job was at a sod farm, making $1.75/hour and YES it was hard work, in the hot sun, but it was work and a paycheck (and McJobs paid only $1/hour then). Many can, and do, make enough doing this work to survive, not any high style, middle class life, but certainly enough to live on. Nobody expects (I hope) to stay at either a McJob or as a fruit picker for their entire life, but even if they did, they could move up to at least a crew chief or asst. manager, to help run things and train the newer workers; at that level, they would be at least lower middle class, as long as they did not have to live in a very high cost area.

    The ENTIRE U.S. population is NOT college educated adults, and it NEVER will be; get that through your head, there will always be new workers an many of them will work in farm, retail, service, trade and production jobs for their entire lives. Welcome to the rest of America, where many of us, believe it or not, are quite happy doing regular, plain, old fashioned, hard work.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 07-04-12 at 03:43 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by James Cessna View Post
    The problem is many people are graduating from college today with “liberal arts” degrees that no employer has a need for or can use. And then these people complain they cannot find a decent job with a starting salary of $100,000 a year!

    There are plenty of good paying jobs available in science and technology today but few people graduate with these degrees because the coursework requires a lot of math and the courses are very difficult for most people to understand and master.
    Actually, by mid career, people who got philosophy degrees are making a median income of $81k, where people with accounting degrees are making $77k and people with biology degrees are making $64k. For comparison, somebody with only a high school degree makes a median of $30k.

    WSJ.com
    http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/incom...0/P16_2010.xls
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by James Cessna View Post
    If the illegal immigrants supported and voted for the candidates of the Republican party, the liberals would throw them out of our country in a heart-beat, regardless of their need for jobs and income and their economic status!
    This whole conspiracy theory is ridiculous. The Democrats haven't changed their position on immigration. We still have the same position Republicans did just 4 years ago. And, four years ago, the Republicans were getting a solid 1/3 of the Hispanic vote. In fact, four years ago, most analysts were talking about how Hispanics were the future of the Republican party- they tend to be socially conservative. But, instead of trying to appeal to Hispanics, the GOP decided to start attacking them for no reason. And not just about immigration. English as a national language, banning cultural studies courses, racist attacks on Sotomayor... That's why they're in the Democrats' column- because you kicked them out of your party.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post

    You are one hard headed dude. What I am saying is that picking fruit is HARDER than a McJob, a whole LOT harder. It is not easy indoor work, out of the elements, in a pristine, air conditioned store, it is back breaking, bending, stooping HARD ASS work, outside in the blazing hot sun, out among the bugs; THAT SHOULD pay at least 3x what that McJob pays PLUS provide free temporary housing since commuting to those jobs is not practical. These jobs would be IDEAL starting SEASONAL jobs for sinlgle HS and college kids to get some money together and good work experience.

    My first job was at a sod farm, making $1.75/hour and YES it was hard work, in the hot sun, but it was work and a paycheck (and McJobs paid only $1/hour then). Many can, and do, make enough doing this work to survive, not any high style, middle class life, but certainly enough to live on. Nobody expects (I hope) to stay at either a McJob or as a fruit picker for their entire life, but even if they did, they could move up to at least a crew chief or asst. manager, to help run things and train the newer workers; at that level, they would be at least lower middle class, as long as they did not have to live in a very high cost area.

    The ENTIRE U.S. population is NOT college educated adults, and it NEVER will be; get that through your head, there will always be new workers an many of them will work in farm, retail, service, trade and production jobs for their entire lives. Welcome to the rest of America, where many of us, believe it or not, are quite happy doing regular, plain, old fashioned, hard work.
    What is funny is that many of these college graduates today who have expensive "liberal arts" degrees are unable to find a prestigious job making $65.00 an hour, so instead, they move back in with their parents.

    Someday, their parents are going to kick them out of the comfortable nest and they are going to have to apply for a job at McDonalds or Chick-fil-A and start out in the job market like the rest of us who are older and less “entitled” had to do!
    Last edited by James Cessna; 07-04-12 at 03:55 PM.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You are one hard headed dude. What I am saying is that picking fruit is HARDER than a McJob, a whole LOT harder. It is not easy indoor work, out of the elements, in a pristine, air conditioned store, it is back breaking, bending, stooping HARD ASS work, outside in the blazing hot sun, out among the bugs; THAT SHOULD pay at least 3x what that McJob pays PLUS provide free temporary housing since commuting to those jobs is not practical. These jobs would be IDEAL starting SEASONAL jobs for sinlgle HS and college kids to get some money together and good work experience.
    Jobs don't pay based on how hard they are, they pay based on how much profit they generate. A job at McDonalds generates way more money than a job as a migrant laborer. Hence, we would rather our people work in McDonalds than as migrant laborers.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    The ENTIRE U.S. population is NOT college educated adults, and it NEVER will be; get that through your head, there will always be new workers an many of them will work in farm, retail, service, trade and production jobs for their entire lives.
    History just doesn't stand still like that. It continually progresses. If a large chunk of our population is still doing the same sorts of jobs that we do today in 100 years, we will be a third world country. Whether we like it or not, that's reality. 100 years ago over 60% of our population worked in agriculture. Today it is less than 2%. And you know what countries still have over 60% of their population working in agriculture? Third world countries.

    That's not something I am trying to force on anybody, that's just the reality of the world. It has always happened like that and it always will happen like that. New careers and industries and technologies emerge and staying on top means moving into those new areas as fast as you can and always being on the lookout to the next one.

    100 years ago, a relatively small percentage of the population got high school degrees. We didn't need them to farm. Then, maybe 40 years ago we crossed the line where the typical person pretty much needed a high school degree to make a decent living. Of course, there are always exceptions, but that became the norm. Today we're crossing over the line where the typical person needs to get a college degree. Somebody who is 18 now is still going to need to be employable in 2052. There is no way that very many people who don't even have a college degree will be able to find work in 2052. In fact, in 2052 18 year olds will need to be getting more advanced degrees to be viable. That's just how it goes. The world gets more and more complex. Simpler jobs get automated and new, higher reward, jobs pop up that require more education. We need to keep swimming or we sink.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    I believe the employers in Arizona and Alabama would disagree with your assessment. They have not been able to find legal workers to fill the vacated jobs. The United Farm Workers are running a "Take Our Jobs" campaign in California, offering fruit picking jobs to any American who wants them. They got about two serious candidates. TAKEOURJOBS.ORG
    For my state this is quite simply a lie. We are doing fine without the New Slave Labor. Unemployment among American citizens in the county which saw the greatest numbers of illegal aliens leave has dropped significantly.

    But the usual suspects continue to try to overturn the law. It is not going to happen.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    This whole conspiracy theory is ridiculous. The Democrats haven't changed their position on immigration. We still have the same position Republicans did just 4 years ago. And, four years ago, the Republicans were getting a solid 1/3 of the Hispanic vote. In fact, four years ago, most analysts were talking about how Hispanics were the future of the Republican party- they tend to be socially conservative. But, instead of trying to appeal to Hispanics, the GOP decided to start attacking them for no reason. And not just about immigration. English as a national language, banning cultural studies courses, racist attacks on Sotomayor... That's why they're in the Democrats' column- because you kicked them out of your party.
    You assume too much.

    I am not a Republican; I am an independent. I support gay marriage and a woman's right to choose.

    I object to illegal immigrants crossing into our country and rudely breaking in line ahead of other immigrants who have legally applied for citizenship and have followed the rules.

    I object to illegal immigrants who cross into our country, work here illegally, send their children to our public schools, receive free medical care, enjoy our public libraries and parks and have the benefit of our police and fire protection and don’t pay their fair share of taxes like the rest of us must do.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    For my state this is quite simply a lie. We are doing fine without the New Slave Labor. Unemployment among American citizens in the county which saw the greatest numbers of illegal aliens leave has dropped significantly.

    But the usual suspects continue to try to overturn the law. It is not going to happen.
    The thing is, your state is not doing fine. It's an economic disaster. Your median household income is almost $10k below the national average and almost $20k behind states like California, New York, Washington state or New Jersey. $10k is the difference between the US and Italy. $20k is approaching the difference between the US and Mexico.

    You schools consistently rank in the bottom 5 states. 15% of the population of your state is classified as illiterate.

    I'm not just trying to rag on you for the sake of being mean. More than anything else in this country, we need red states to stop settling for dropping out of school and doing low end jobs. We need you to catch up. The well being of our entire country depends on it. If the red states caught up with the blue states, it would be the biggest economic boom the country has ever seen. If they continue falling behind, it will continue to drag the rest of the country down with it. People in red states need to stay in school. It's that simple.
    Last edited by teamosil; 07-04-12 at 04:27 PM.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post

    For my state this is quite simply a lie. We are doing fine without the New Slave Labor. Unemployment among American citizens in the county which saw the greatest numbers of illegal aliens leave has dropped significantly.

    But the usual suspects continue to try to overturn the law. It is not going to happen.
    Here is an interesting analsis, Misterveritis.

    You may have seen it before. It is quite an eye opener.

    EMILIO LEGAL vs. JOSE ILLEGAL

    You have two families: "Emilio Legal" and "Jose Illegal". Both families have two parents, two children, and live in southern California.

    Emilio Legal works in construction, has a Social Security Number and makes $25.00 per hour with taxes deducted.

    Jose Illegal also works in construction, has NO Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table".

    Ready? … Now pay very close attention...

    Emilio Legal: $25.00 per hour x 40 hours = $1,000.00 per week, or $52,000.00 per year. Now take 30% away for state and federal tax; Emilio Legal now has $31,231.00.

    Jose Illegal: $15.00 per hour x 40 hours = $600.00 per week, or $31,200.00 per year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes. Jose Illegal now has $31,200.00.

    Emilio Legal pays medical and dental insurance with limited coverage for his family at $600.00 per month, or $7,200.00 per year. Emilio Legal now has $24,031.00.

    Jose Illegal has full medical and dental coverage through the state and local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.

    Emilio Legal makes too much money and is not eligible for food stamps or state welfare. Emilio Legal pays $500.00 per month for food, or $6,000.00 per year. Emilio Legal now has $18,031.00.

    Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for food stamps and state welfare. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.

    Emilio Legal pays rent of $1,200.00 per month, or $14,400.00 per year. Emilio Legal now has $9,631.00.

    Jose Illegal receives a $500.00 per month federal rent subsidy. Jose Illegal pays out that $500.00 per month, or $6,000.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.

    Emilio Legal pays $200.00 per month, or $2,400.00 for auto insurance. Emilio Legal now has $7,231.00.

    Jose Illegal says, "We don't need no expensive auto insurance!" and still has $31,200.00.

    Emilio Legal has to make his $7,231.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, clothes and shoes for his family, etc.

    Jose Illegal has to make his $31,200.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, clothes and shoes for his family and what he faithfully sends out of the country to his relatives in Mexico every month.

    Emilio Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after work.

    Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.

    Emilio Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school. Emilio Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get a government sponsored lunch. Jose Illegal's children have an after school ESL program. Emilio Legal's children go directly home after school.

    Emilio Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same police and fire services and emergency room services and Public Park and library services but Emilio has paid for them and Jose did not pay.

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