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Thread: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by James Cessna View Post
    We agree.

    The states should crack down on the employers who do not pay minimum wages and Social Security taxes.

    This will solve our illegal immigration problem very quickly if the people who come here illegally cannot find jobs.
    People will not do those jobs for minimum wage, period. You think a tomato farmer can afford to pay a fruit picker $20/hr.?
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by James Cessna View Post
    We agree.

    The states should crack down on the employers who do not pay minimum wages and Social Security taxes.

    This will solve our illegal immigration problem very quickly if the people who come here illegally cannot find jobs.
    No, I never said that at all. We can't crack down on employers that hire undocumented immigrants until we have a guest worker program that is sufficient to replace them. Otherwise we'd just crash our economy. For example, 88% of the price of a strawberry is labor. They pay migrant laborers a couple dollars an hour. It is brutally hard work, you have to move every few days and live in shanties and it is only seasonal. So, to hire a citizen would cost, in California, a minimum of about $10/hour. So that means the price of strawberries made here would rise about 400%. That means the industry shuts down and lots of legal jobs are lost too in the process. So, we can't stop hiring the undocumented immigrants to pick strawberries until we have a guest worker program that can satisfy that need. The same is true of most jobs undocumented immigrants do. Without the super cheap labor, those jobs wouldn't exist, nor would the legal jobs they support.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post

    No, I never said that at all. We can't crack down on employers that hire undocumented immigrants until we have a guest worker program that is sufficient to replace them. Otherwise we'd just crash our economy. For example, 88% of the price of a strawberry is labor. They pay migrant laborers a couple dollars an hour. It is brutally hard work, you have to move every few days and live in shanties and it is only seasonal. So, to hire a citizen would cost, in California, a minimum of about $10/hour. So that means the price of strawberries made here would rise about 400%. That means the industry shuts down and lots of legal jobs are lost too in the process. So, we can't stop hiring the undocumented immigrants to pick strawberries until we have a guest worker program that can satisfy that need. The same is true of most jobs undocumented immigrants do. Without the super cheap labor, those jobs wouldn't exist, nor would the legal jobs they support.
    We agree.

    Let's crack down on employers that hire undocumented immigrants to harvest strawberries when we have a guest worker program that is sufficient to track them.

    Meanwhile, let’s crack down on the unscrupulous employers who hire illegal immigrants to do the work of non-farm jobs such as gardeners, landscapers, short order cooks and day laborers.

    We have more than enough gardeners, landscapers, short order cooks and day laborers. We don't need any more.
    Last edited by James Cessna; 07-04-12 at 01:40 PM.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No, I never said that at all. We can't crack down on employers that hire undocumented immigrants until we have a guest worker program that is sufficient to replace them. Otherwise we'd just crash our economy. For example, 88% of the price of a strawberry is labor. They pay migrant laborers a couple dollars an hour. It is brutally hard work, you have to move every few days and live in shanties and it is only seasonal. So, to hire a citizen would cost, in California, a minimum of about $10/hour. So that means the price of strawberries made here would rise about 400%. That means the industry shuts down and lots of legal jobs are lost too in the process. So, we can't stop hiring the undocumented immigrants to pick strawberries until we have a guest worker program that can satisfy that need. The same is true of most jobs undocumented immigrants do. Without the super cheap labor, those jobs wouldn't exist, nor would the legal jobs they support.
    "If illegal workers disappeared from the apple harvest and wages for the remaining legal workers rose by 40 percent in response — and that entire wage increase were passed on to the consumer — that still would add less than 3 cents to the retail price of a pound of apples.
    Local News | Low-paid illegal work force has little impact on prices | Seattle Times Newspaper

    •If unauthorized workers were replaced by authorized workers at the higher average wage rate authorized workers currently earn, farms in the fruits, nuts, and vegetable sector would experience a total labor cost increase of 10 percent, and the increase for the field crops and grains sector would be 6 percent.
    •Major crops like corn, soybean, and other cash grains would experience, on average, a 12 percent decrease in net farm income as a result of a 6-10 percent average wage increase.
    •The fruits, nuts, and vegetables sector would be impacted the most as the average net farm income would decrease by 12 percent, yet, the average commercial farm in this sector would still have earned an average net farm income higher than that of any other average commodity farm studied (without passing on any costs to customers).

    Illegal Immigration and Agribusiness: The Effect on the Agriculture Industry of Converting to a Legal Workforce

    not even close to 400%.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post

    "If illegal workers disappeared from the apple harvest and wages for the remaining legal workers rose by 40 percent in response — and that entire wage increase were passed on to the consumer — that still would add less than 3 cents to the retail price of a pound of apples.
    Local News | Low-paid illegal work force has little impact on prices | Seattle Times Newspaper

    •If unauthorized workers were replaced by authorized workers at the higher average wage rate authorized workers currently earn, farms in the fruits, nuts, and vegetable sector would experience a total labor cost increase of 10 percent, and the increase for the field crops and grains sector would be 6 percent.

    •Major crops like corn, soybean, and other cash grains would experience, on average, a 12 percent decrease in net farm income as a result of a 6-10 percent average wage increase.

    •The fruits, nuts, and vegetables sector would be impacted the most as the average net farm income would decrease by 12 percent, yet, the average commercial farm in this sector would still have earned an average net farm income higher than that of any other average commodity farm studied (without passing on any costs to customers).

    Illegal Immigration and Agribusiness: The Effect on the Agriculture Industry of Converting to a Legal Workforce

    not even close to 400%.
    You are correct, Mike.

    "If illegal workers disappeared from the apple harvest and wages for the remaining legal workers rose by 40 percent in response — and that entire wage increase were passed on to the consumer — that still would add less than 3 cents to the retail price of a pound of apples."

    Most of the cost of produce has to do with the price of fuel and the transportation costs to deliver them to the supermarkets. The labor costs to harvest them are very small in comparison.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by James Cessna View Post
    We agree.

    Let's crack down on employers that hire undocumented immigrants when we have a guest worker program that is sufficient to replace them.
    Cool. Agreed on that part.

    Quote Originally Posted by James Cessna View Post
    Meanwhile, let’s crack down on the unscrupulous employers who hire illegal immigrants to do the work of non-farm jobs such as gardeners, landscapers, short order cooks and day laborers.

    We have more than enough gardeners, landscapers, short order cooks and day laborers. We don't need any more.
    What the Obama administration is doing is cracking down on employers starting with the most desirable jobs that undocumented immigrants are in, which has largely been manufacturing so far. I agree that's a good stop gap, but its just a stopgap. Ultimately we need a guest worker program that identifies the industries that really do need very low cost labor. Agriculture is a lot of it, but there are jobs like that in other industries too. Once we have that in place, there will be an option for folks who are already here to get in line with the law and start paying more taxes, and then we can start cracking down across the board on employers IMO.

    But, just a side note. The number of undocumented immigrants in the US has been falling for 3 years in a row now. IMO we need to be careful to assign resources to enforcement in proportion to the harm done. Undocumented immigrants cost us around $40 billion a year in social services, they take some jobs citizens want, but they also boost up the economy by taking jobs citizens don't want. We currently spend around $40 billion on enforcement as well. So, IMO, the goal should be to do things smarter, not to expand enforcement overall.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No, I never said that at all. We can't crack down on employers that hire undocumented immigrants until we have a guest worker program that is sufficient to replace them. Otherwise we'd just crash our economy. For example, 88% of the price of a strawberry is labor. They pay migrant laborers a couple dollars an hour. It is brutally hard work, you have to move every few days and live in shanties and it is only seasonal. So, to hire a citizen would cost, in California, a minimum of about $10/hour. So that means the price of strawberries made here would rise about 400%. That means the industry shuts down and lots of legal jobs are lost too in the process. So, we can't stop hiring the undocumented immigrants to pick strawberries until we have a guest worker program that can satisfy that need. The same is true of most jobs undocumented immigrants do. Without the super cheap labor, those jobs wouldn't exist, nor would the legal jobs they support.
    Guest workers are simply semi-slaves and should be ILLEGAL unless minimum wage x2 PLUS free decent housing is guaranteed. It is FAR different to allow a foreign machinist or medical technician a work visa than a fruit picker. That is simply nonsense to avoid paying a wage that supports a decent living in this country. To assert that those paid to DO NOTHING on welfare or unemployment can not pick fruit is INSANE.

    The creation of a permanent underclass, imported temporarily or not, is INSANE. That is why AMNESTY for illegal aliens is insane, it converts field working semi-slaves into instant welfare recipients. There is NO NEED for below market wage workers, NONE at all. If a job is worth getting done, then it is worth paying a wage to attract workers to do it. If the required SKILL involved is not available in the U.S., then the wages are NOT depressed by using foreign TEMPORARY labor, ONLY until the U.S. can build up that trained workforce; but for unskilled or semi-skilled workers that is simply semi-slavery, using them for a season, and then sending them scampering into OUR cities and suburbs. We did not get 11 million illegal aliens that WILL NO LONGER PICK FRUIT by accident.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 07-04-12 at 02:09 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    "If illegal workers disappeared from the apple harvest and wages for the remaining legal workers rose by 40 percent in response — and that entire wage increase were passed on to the consumer — that still would add less than 3 cents to the retail price of a pound of apples.
    Local News | Low-paid illegal work force has little impact on prices | Seattle Times Newspaper

    •If unauthorized workers were replaced by authorized workers at the higher average wage rate authorized workers currently earn, farms in the fruits, nuts, and vegetable sector would experience a total labor cost increase of 10 percent, and the increase for the field crops and grains sector would be 6 percent.
    •Major crops like corn, soybean, and other cash grains would experience, on average, a 12 percent decrease in net farm income as a result of a 6-10 percent average wage increase.
    •The fruits, nuts, and vegetables sector would be impacted the most as the average net farm income would decrease by 12 percent, yet, the average commercial farm in this sector would still have earned an average net farm income higher than that of any other average commodity farm studied (without passing on any costs to customers).

    Illegal Immigration and Agribusiness: The Effect on the Agriculture Industry of Converting to a Legal Workforce

    not even close to 400%.
    Apples are very low labor crops. Heck, people pay extra to go to the orchard and pick the apples themselves. Harvesting corn and things like that are essentially mechanized processes. So, I agree that those industries would be just fine.

    Where it really is an issue is migrant laborers. People that travel around from farm to farm picking whatever crop it is intensively for a few days then they need to move on to the next one. Those tend to be ultra labor intensive crops- strawberries being one of the very most labor intensive. And, they involve working conditions that are particularly brutal. People need to leave home and travel from farm to farm living in shacks for the season, then there is no work the rest of the year. Bringing those conditions up to OSHA standards and standards of comfort that a citizen might be willing to accept and raising the wages to minimum wage, would destroy those industries.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Apples are very low labor crops. Heck, people pay extra to go to the orchard and pick the apples themselves. Harvesting corn and things like that are essentially mechanized processes. So, I agree that those industries would be just fine.

    Where it really is an issue is migrant laborers. People that travel around from farm to farm picking whatever crop it is intensively for a few days then they need to move on to the next one. Those tend to be ultra labor intensive crops- strawberries being one of the very most labor intensive. And, they involve working conditions that are particularly brutal. People need to leave home and travel from farm to farm living in shacks for the season, then there is no work the rest of the year. Bringing those conditions up to OSHA standards and standards of comfort that a citizen might be willing to accept and raising the wages to minimum wage, would destroy those industries.
    Then those industries SHOULD be destroyed. To assert that an industry is ONLY possible if FOREIGN semi-slave temporary labor is used is INSANE. Those are the products that SHOULD be imported, NOT simply the labor to produce them. How would YOU like it if your boss said your work is fine, but I must pay you HALF what you now get, to compete with China or Mexico? Think, before you drink, even koolaid.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post

    Apples are very low labor crops. Heck, people pay extra to go to the orchard and pick the apples themselves. Harvesting corn and things like that are essentially mechanized processes. So, I agree that those industries would be just fine.

    Where it really is an issue is migrant laborers. People that travel around from farm to farm picking whatever crop it is intensively for a few days then they need to move on to the next one. Those tend to be ultra labor intensive crops- strawberries being one of the very most labor intensive. And, they involve working conditions that are particularly brutal. People need to leave home and travel from farm to farm living in shacks for the season, then there is no work the rest of the year. Bringing those conditions up to OSHA standards and standards of comfort that a citizen might be willing to accept and raising the wages to minimum wage, would destroy those industries.


    This is what Mexican immigrants who come here illegally to work as day laborers think of our U.S. immigration laws. These people have no fear of being deported and do not hide from the local police! Barack Obama wants to open our borders up to more of these people!

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