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Thread: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The problem with your assessment is the flawed assumption that it's just illegal immigrants that drive down the cost of labor. Legal immigrants, the people I typically hired, were twice the employee for half the cost as a natural born US citizen was.

    Illegal immigrants aren't the problem (and they never have been, despite decades of whining by the anti-illegal crowd), lazy Americans are the problem. Personally I'd rather deport the no-skill-having, overpriced, arrogant Natural-born citizens that are nothing more than a victim-mentality drain in the economy than the hard working, talented, workers that just happen to be here illegally.
    In my opinion you raise a good point. The left has made poverty comfortable for the free-loaders. Why should they work when the American taxpayers are still willing to be forced to pay to keep free-loaders comfortable?

    We need to let poverty be poverty.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Um, those are wages NOW, not during the peak that you were talking about, nor are you including any benefits (health, dental..), but go ahead and tell me again how you were paying benefits, meeting the wage levels for that time and again how US workers were "lazy".
    **** no I wasn't paying health and dental. That **** would have priced me right out of business because nobody doing residential offered those things.

    Chicago's market for residential carpentry was not defined by the union. In fact, you'd be very hard pressed to find anything residential that was union built during the boom. And you'd be hard pressed to find any company doing residential that paid more than I did. Those are facts. You don't have to acknowledge them for them to be true. You can continue to believe all of the things you made up in your head.
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 06-27-12 at 05:19 PM.
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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    For those I've been debating with in this thread:

    I've been thinking about the "lazy Americans" rhetoric I've been using in this thread and I realize that I owe people an apology. It was way over the top and doesn't accurately portray my views. My apologies to anyone I have offended with this over-the-top and uncalled for rhetoric.
    Your main point is valid: overriding reason construction-related work is sucking wind is the real estate bust and not illegal immigration. What we should be doing to fix it is not to waste time and money on the fools errand of trying to hermetically seal the border, but rather to invest in major infrastructure repair which is sorely needed and which can be financed virtually for free. It is a huge demand and there is a huge supply of ready labor that is withering on the vine. It will only be more expensive to do the work going forward.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Your main point is valid: overriding reason construction-related work is sucking wind is the real estate bust and not illegal immigration. What we should be doing to fix it is not to waste time and money on the fools errand of trying to hermetically seal the border, but rather to invest in major infrastructure repair which is sorely needed and which can be financed virtually for free. It is a huge demand and there is a huge supply of ready labor that is withering on the vine. It will only be more expensive to do the work going forward.
    The main problem with those government jobs doing infrastructure work is that they always get handed out to no-bid union contractors with political connections, at least here in Chicago that's how it works. The guys at the top make insane amounts because there's no competition, while the workers take on all the risk. Sure they'd get a lot of the unemployed union guys out working, but since they'd be going to outfits that have been clipping along on similar jobs anyway, it won't be as many people as you would think.
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  5. #325
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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    In my opinion you raise a good point. The left has made poverty comfortable for the free-loaders. Why should they work when the American taxpayers are still willing to be forced to pay to keep free-loaders comfortable?

    We need to let poverty be poverty.
    Have you ever been so broke you weren't sure when you were going to eat? "poverty comfortable for the free-loaders" is complete and utter crap!

    Are there "free-loaders"? Of course. Are the vast majority of Americans who are only surviving because of various welfare and charitable efforts all "free-loaders"? NO


    "let poverty be poverty" Misterveritis writes, I wonder if he has read Tyler Cowen's 'justifications for abolishing all government-funded health care
    We need to accept the principle that sometimes poor people will die just because they are poor.
    Last edited by Somerville; 06-27-12 at 05:22 PM. Reason: typo
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The main problem with those government jobs doing infrastructure work is that they always get handed out to no-bid union contractors with political connections, at least here in Chicago that's how it works. The guys at the top make insane amounts because there's no competition, while the workers take on all the risk. Sure they'd get a lot of the unemployed union guys out working, but since they'd be going to outfits that have been clipping along on similar jobs anyway, it won't be as many people as you would think.
    You certainly know more about it than I do, but if those guys are already fully staffed, and all this new work comes up ... doesn't that mean they'd have to hire a bunch of new workers to fill the contracts? Wouldn't that pull people out of the residential market and thus reduce competition and allow rates to go up?
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    **** no I wasn't paying health and dental. That **** would have priced me right out of business because nobody dong residential offered those things.

    Chicago's market for residential carpentry was not defined by the union. In fact, you'd be very hard pressed to find anything residential that was union built during the boom. And you'd be hard pressed to find any company doing residential that paid more than I did. Those are facts. You don't have to acknowledge them for them to be true. You can continue to believe all of the thigns you made up in your head.
    No, it is more a matter of what you are saying as being true. Not only have you blurred the lines on whether the guys your company hired were legal ("fresh off the boat"!!) or the fact that you were not providing any benefits or revealing that you were operating in one of the highest costs of living areas, but that you started from the premise that you could not attract US workers at a time of high demand/higher wages and so deemed them "lazy".

    It is not me "making things up", it is you having to defend your specious indictment of Chicago carpenters.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    For those I've been debating with in this thread:

    I've been thinking about the "lazy Americans" rhetoric I've been using in this thread and I realize that I owe people an apology. It was way over the top and doesn't accurately portray my views. My apologies to anyone I have offended with this over-the-top and uncalled for rhetoric.
    Meh...a weak mea culpa coming on the heels of lots of rhetoric. It wasn't a matter of offending, it was more a matter of integrity.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    No, it is more a matter of what you are saying as being true. Not only have you blurred the lines on whether the guys your company hired were legal ("fresh off the boat"!!) or the fact that you were not providing any benefits or revealing that you were operating in one of the highest costs of living areas, but that you started from the premise that you could not attract US workers at a time of high demand/higher wages and so deemed them "lazy".

    It is not me "making things up", it is you having to defend your specious indictment of Chicago carpenters.
    First, are you under the misguided impression that people who are fresh off the boat form Ireland cannot be here legally?

    Second, are you under the misguided impression that the market value for residential carpenters included benefits?

    third, are you under the impression that the thing you made up and attributed to me as the premise I started from accurately portrays the premise I started from? (hint: at no point did I say that I wanted to attract US workers. That's just some idiocy you invented to pretend that you have a clue)

    It's one thing to be ignorant, as you have demonstrated yourself to be, but it's another thing when you outright lie, as you have also done repeatedly by pretending that you have a ****ing clue about what you are talking about.
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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Meh...a weak mea culpa coming on the heels of lots of rhetoric. It wasn't a matter of offending, it was more a matter of integrity.
    I apologized for calling them lazy, not for saying they price themselves out of the market.

    Also, you are not in a position to talk about integrity, as you have no clue what you are talking about.
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