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Thread: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    wait, SCOTUS decided that its unConstitutionsal for there to be a state law making it illegal for unlawful immigrants to work?

    they are saying that illegal aliens have the right to work in the USA???
    What's to stop a state for making it illegal for Texans to enter, or ex-convicts, gays etc?

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    And, yes, we most certainly disagree as to your quantification.

    You say "a greater number".

    I say it will be a teeny tiny lesser number than you state.
    There are an estimated 12 million illegals in the entire country right now. This law effects Arizona of which there is an estimate 4% of that total.


    You earlier said that it would be, in effect, a one-for-one stopping and questioning of American citizens for each of the 20 million illegals in America.
    I said no such thing.
    I'm saying, no, that's a gross exaggeration, made for ideologically motivated hyperbole effect.

    I'm saying that it likely won't be more than 1 in 10,000, or at best 2,000 Americans nation-wide of all races and appearances, if that, that will be stopped and questioned about their citizenship.

    And I'm saying that because law enforcement simply does not merely go on looks in a situation like this, and it's preposterous ideological posturing to say that they do.

    Law enforcement will also be looking at behavior and reflecting attitudes before detaining someone.

    So, knowing how law enforcement works, I see no basis for your extreme exaggerations, extreme exaggerations that merely function to create unjustified hysteria.

    And regarding your phrase "based merely on suspicion", last time I looked, "suspicion" in the eyes of law enforcement is exactly what a stop and momentary detaining in such a situation as this would logically, rationally be based upon, a justified suspicion based on multiple relevant criteria in the matter.



    A true American citizen is opposed to illegal immigration as illegal immigration is a crime against fellow American citizens.

    No true American would support such a crime against their fellow American citizens, and any American who condones illegal immigration is a complict accomplice to the associated crimes, in effect, a Benedict Arnold to fellow American citizens, and to America itself.
    I am opposed to illegal immigration and in fact am quite conservative in that area. I believe we should focus on the companies which hire them, giving out stiff fines for every violation, no bargaining. So you are barking up the wrong tree there.

    What part of that statement do you have a problem with?



    If there is indeed "a lack of good reason" to stop anyone, I doubt that law enforcement will stop that individual(s).
    What makes you fear otherwise?

    As to your relatives being stopped, have you asked them if they would mind being momentarily stopped in an effort to stop the egregious crime against Americans that illegall immigration is, in the name of putting an end to the economy-killing prolem for millions of American citizens?

    Maybe they wouldn't mind at all.

    Or, maybe that one relative of yours is married .. to an illegal?!

    Regardless, the stop and detain activities of law enforcement is based on more than mere looks. By utilziing more than just looks they can stop and detain all ethnicities, as the problem isn't all about "Mexicans" as is ludirously accused, as illegal immigrants come from all over the world.

    Law enforcement knows what it's doing, obviously.

    No need to contrive hysteria where none exists.



    And your paranoia doesn't make such fear-fantasies reality.

    Besides, again, people get stopped and detained all the time in America because for one rational reason or another they look, act, etc. like someone the police are searching for, and without either force or hundcuffs, after a few questions, the police thank them for their patience in attempting to find the real criminal and they go on their way.

    Americans who are oblivious to this reality of every-day law enforcement activity in hunting for the criminal either don't watch enough law-enforcement TV shows to know that it happens all the time, or are simply uninformed as to normal relevant occurrences in general.



    Your projection is meaningless.

    Your mistake which I "cleverly" called you on was about your error in understanding how law enforcement works and to also refute your call for hysteria in the face of an unreal fear.
    I don't support doing wrong to a legal citizen in order find the illegals. This law allows for the police to stop and ask for papers for any one they suspect of being here illegally.

    That provision, requiring police to conduct immigration checks on individuals they arrest or merely stop for questioning whom they suspect are in the U.S. illegally, does not appear to violate the Constitution by intruding on the federal governmentís powers to control immigration, the court said

    Read more: Arizona immigration ruling: High court strikes down much of Arizona immigration law - POLITICO.com

    Why am I worried? Because law enforcement officers are human and they make mistakes. Why should my Hispanic or Hispanic looking relatives be subject to submit their papers, while their own white relatives would not be likely to have to produce the same? Again, especially where children are likely to be concerned. The one very close relative has left her ID behind in another purse on a few occasions. If she gets pulled over here, they let her off with a warning. There, owing to her perceived origin, it's likely she ends up detained until someone brings her ID to the detention center. What about her baby son? An innocent mistake, made by women all the time could result in her child being placed in foster care. If it happens once and the very fact that she and the other mother I've given as an example, could be at risk of such an incident, it is reprehensible.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by Hikertrash View Post
    What's to stop a state for making it illegal for Texans to enter, or ex-convicts, gays etc?
    A little thing called the Constitution, Article IV, Sec. 2 The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.

    then there is the 14th Amendment, paragraph 1: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    Does that answer your question?
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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    This part of the law was ruled invalid by today's decision. Arizona law enforcement can not detain individuals without approval of federal authorities.
    Yeah, I just posted that to show the portion that was upheld had been altered already.

    What's a big deal for me right now is you have the DOJ saying they're going to keep their eyes on Arizona's use of the law, BUT, they're not going to do their job of course. Because they've also said that they'll no longer take Arizona's phone calls, for queries or for deportation holds.

    If Obama wins this next election, I hope the republicans impeach his ass. Never said that about any president before, but this one has totally failed and now won't even do his job.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    ... you have the DOJ saying they're going to keep their eyes on Arizona's use of the law, BUT, they're not going to do their job of course. Because they've also said that they'll no longer take Arizona's phone calls, for queries or for deportation holds.

    If Obama wins this next election, I hope the republicans impeach his ass. Never said that about any president before, but this one has totally failed and now won't even do his job.
    Obviously we have rather different opinions about whether or not the President has been doing his job.

    Would you care to provide some citations to support your claim that the DoJ has "said that they'll no longer take Arizona's phone calls, for queries or for deportation holds."?
    ďAnd I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.Ē
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Another ruling not worth a damn by the Supreme Court.

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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    The Feds are not refusing to enforce the law. They are enforcing it now more than they were under the previous administration. The number of illegals is falling and border state crime has been falling for some time.
    Then why would a state like Arizona feel the need for such a law? Could be because the Federal efforts are insufficient to protect the state internally?
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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Then why would a state like Arizona feel the need for such a law? Could be because the Federal efforts are insufficient to protect the state internally?
    or could it be a political move by an opposition party in its efforts to make the President look bad?
    ďAnd I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.Ē
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    Re: The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

    Just to clarify the legalesse, to understand this ruling it is important to understand the distinction between "as applied" and "facial" constitutional challenges.

    A facial challenge is saying that the law itself is flat out unconstitutional and that there is no way it could be implemented which is acceptable. For example, a law saying that no Asians will be allowed to work for the federal government would fail a facial challenge. But, a law saying that a particular individual will review all applications for federal employment for "appropriateness of the applicant" would survive a facial challenge. But, an as applied challenge looks at how the law is actually implemented. So, that law about the particular individual reviewing the applications would be struck down as unconstitutional under an as applied challenge if that individual chose to use that position to reject all Asian applicants.

    So, this was the facial challenge. What the SCOTUS said is that 3 of the 4 provisions were facially unconstitutional- no matter how Arizona implements them, they would be unconstitutional, so they are gone before AZ even has a shot to implement them. The one provision they let stand was not declared constitutional, they just said that it isn't facially unconstitutional. They want to see how it is implemented before they decide. What that really means is that were AZ to try to use that to get Arpaio's racial profiling campaigns back up and running, they would strike that provision down, but if AZ uses it responsibly, with no more racial profiling at all, then they'll let it stand.

    That result seems about right to me.
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