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Thread: Anti-racism ad campaign in Minnesota town called 'racist' by critics

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    Re: Anti-racism ad campaign in Minnesota town called 'racist' by critics

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    I seriously don't agree with these ads as if you are trying to start up a serious conversation about race and racism in America, this really isn't the way to do it as in general people are really going to be turned off.
    Thank you for saying this, Mr. I. As I've noted before, for the most part, putting someone on the immediate defensive doesn't really open them up to hearing your position because they'll be too busy feeling the need to defend themselves.

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    Re: Anti-racism ad campaign in Minnesota town called 'racist' by critics

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Advertisement/education of "white privledge" is not inherently in and of itself guilt/shame motivated. The method one advertises and utilizes white privledge is more to do with that. The fact this is "shock value" is more in line with the notion of it being a "guilt/shame" method of advertisement rather than it's use of White Privledge.
    Nah, I disagree. I don't think "shock value" aspect is going for shame/guilt. I have no doubt that that's something some people will feel just like some people will feel anger, but that doesn't speak to the intent of ad. I've posted studies and merely argued that white privilege existed before and people accuse me of trying to make whites feel guilty, but that's not the case. I think it's the same here.

    The ability for it to "shock" and create a reaction in the direction the people who made it appear to want them to go comes from the notion that it causes someone to suddenly realize this exists and feel either guilty or shameful. You took that to mean immedietely guilty or shamed from an individual level. While that is one method, it is hardly the only way. It could be guilty in a societal or racial sense that "we let this happen". Could shame in a similar way...as in ashamed of society as a whole, or race as a whole, or even a generation as a whole. It could be simply the feeling that this is a "shameful" fact.
    I think that the campaign certainly pushes the notion that inequality is shameful because it is. However, I don't think it's try to make people, as individuals, feel ashamed or guilty. At the same time, it's primary aims appear to be education and action as in "this is the reality, let's do something about it" as opposed to, "this is the reality, let's feel bad, then do something."

    Essentially, by stating the "guilt/shame" method, I'm suggesting the advertisings purpose is to instill a negative feeling or emotion towards the notion of race relations into a person in hopes of inspiring them to act. Personally, in almost all things, I'm a far larger supporter of positive re-enforcement in the majority of situations and especially in more broad reaching situations. The "guilt/shame" method to me is negative re-enforcement.
    So then, you think the campaign aims to guilt or shame people on an individual level at some point in the process. I disagree. Its creators probably expected negative emotions including guilty and shame, but I don't necessarily see that in the campaign an attempt to evoke them. The "shock value" for me is in presenting them in a way that forces people to confront white privilege as a real thing rather than white privilege as abstract reality.

    As you said, this is an attempt by those individuals for people to acknowledge reality as they view it (to be frank, if their "reality" is what they depict on their website, their reality is screwed up similar to those who think racism is pretty much non-existant).
    And this is where I think the heart of your criticism exists: in the belief that the message of the campaign is false. I disagree with that and I don't think that it's "reality as I see it." I think it's reality. Period. With that statement, there's obviously the problem that everybody thinks that reality as they see it is reality, period, so me saying that alone means nothing. But the difference is that reality as I see it is supported by mountains of evidence and the other is not.

    However, my stance wasn't suggesting what their intend RESULT of their attempt was but rather the METHOD in which they seek to get people to reach that end. Essentially...what causes the person to "acknowledge reality"? Unless we're suggesting people are so blazingly stupid and unaware and yet so vapidly manipulated that they were entirely unaware that such a thing could possibly exist in any fashion prior to seeing these signs and then suddenly simply by seeing them and with no intermediary thought or feeling they become enlightened that it does exist, then we have to think there's a middle step there between Seeing the Ad and Acknowledging Reality that joins the two things.
    There are, in fact, plenty of white Americans who have absolutely no idea that white privileged exists in any concrete manner. There are some in this thread, many on this forum who will swear on God that it's a myth and there were many at my alma mater.

    If you see shame/guilt as the method, then that's something I'm not going to agree with. I see an ad that attempts to reach people by putting a face on white privilege instead of letting it exist in this abstract place where it's easy to dismiss.

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    Re: Anti-racism ad campaign in Minnesota town called 'racist' by critics

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Once again I'm not acknowledging that these ads are stereotyping or that they're racist. Aren't conservatives always going on about how racism has a clear definition and shouldn't be a term that's thrown around lightly?

    These ads aren't racist. They're pointing out how privilege works and challenging whites to think about how they benefit from said privilege, and once again like I said, privilege is a generalized (in other words, a "group") phenomenon.
    This so much. It's hilarious/astounding to me how those who deride the lazy use of racism are so quick to use it lazily when it applies to white people. When people generalize minorities and it's pointed out, it's "the race card" and "hyperbole" and "but it's TRUE", but when someone generalizes about white people, it's "RACISM!" What a joke.

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    Re: Anti-racism ad campaign in Minnesota town called 'racist' by critics

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    This so much. It's hilarious/astounding to me how those who deride the lazy use of racism are so quick to use it lazily when it applies to white people. When people generalize minorities and it's pointed out, it's "the race card" and "hyperbole" and "but it's TRUE", but when someone generalizes about white people, it's "RACISM!" What a joke.
    Of course, one could easily flip this and point out that there are those who appear to see racism in a Hallmark card that uses the term "black holes" yet can't/won't see even the possibility that it exists an ad campaign that's effectively saying that you're wrong to be white.
    Last edited by X Factor; 06-25-12 at 02:19 PM.

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    Re: Anti-racism ad campaign in Minnesota town called 'racist' by critics

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Just because white Americans can't experience racism and prejudice at the scale that minorities do doesn't mean that they can't experience it at a large enough to scale to understand it better than they might currently. My logic is that certain methods help white Americans understand it better than they do.
    If your logic wasn’t flawed, there would be no racism by minorities who have experienced racism against anyone else because they would have learned how it feels.

    In real life, people respond differently than you seem to think they will. Racism tends to beget racism in return. Remember what happened after the Rodney King trial? How about the violence following the Trayvon Martin shooting? In the real world, people don’t respond the way you seem to think they will.

    Same goes for children of abusive parents. Why do they usually grow up to abuse their own children if we use your logic?

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    Re: Anti-racism ad campaign in Minnesota town called 'racist' by critics

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Of course, one could easily flip this and point out that there are those who appear to see racism in a Hallmark card that uses the term "black holes" yet can't/won't see it in an ad campaign that basically says you're wrong to be white.
    AMEN! ^^^

    This whole campaign speaks of stupidity, something ytypes like Berkley students would come up with.

    Racism exists, and always will. It's not limited to one group or another, ALL groups have their outspoken racists, and those that dabble in racial politics will and can ALWAYS find the outspoken one's to justify pretty much anything they do or say.. Racism is generally an individual reaction to an event or upbringing, and whether it be predicated on fallicious information, or due to an improper interpretation of the events or upbringing that precipitated one's attitude, it should never be a characterization of an entire group of people's attitudes and thoughts toward any other group of people. That's just stupid and lazy thinking!

    Nuff said!


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    Re: Anti-racism ad campaign in Minnesota town called 'racist' by critics

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You approve of stereotyping and making broad sweeping suggestions of individuals based singularly on nothing but their race as a means of fighting racism because...hey, it's done to whites so that's okay. To me, you're supporting something that is actually damaging to the discussion of race in this country and contributing to the very mindset and notion that it supposedly wishes to fight.
    Well, since you're being frank, let me be the same. You're so busy clutching your pearls, that you're not grasping two main things:

    1. When you're depicting a general/societal phenomenon (which white privilege is), there will be generalizations. It's the same when talking about black incarceration rates and education disparities. You can't talk about societal patterns without generalizations. So you either ignore it to avoid offending people or you address it and deal with the consequences. Although you said there are better ways to discuss this, you seem geared toward the former since you haven't accepted the fundamental reality that it's impossible to talk about white privilege without generalized language.

    2. It's better to confront the negative aspects of yourself or of the population you belong to than to ignore them or have your hand held while talking them.

    To explain, nobody likes to see themselves depicted negatively, as a group or as an individual. Regardless of wants, there are negative things about or around most individuals and groups. You can either confront them, whine when people point it out or request that people hold your hand in order to talk about it. Most people do the last two, unfortunately (which is what you're doing). For instance, there are black people who REFUSE to acknowledge problems within the black population that contribute to their socioeconomic place in society. There are white people who REFUSE to acknowledge problems within the white population that maintain inequality. And so on...

    People just need to stop whining, acknowledge the negative aspects of their population or themselves and get on with it.

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    Re: Anti-racism ad campaign in Minnesota town called 'racist' by critics

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Of course, one could easily flip this and point out that there are those who appear to see racism in a Hallmark card that uses the term "black holes" yet can't/won't see even the possibility that it exists an ad campaign that's effectively saying that you're wrong to be white.
    I agree. There are hypocrites on both sides of the discussion. /shrug

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    Re: Anti-racism ad campaign in Minnesota town called 'racist' by critics

    The first rule of white club is that you never talk about white club.

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    Re: Anti-racism ad campaign in Minnesota town called 'racist' by critics

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I don't know, perhaps you should inquire with the conglomarate of "Conservatives". I could just as much say to you that "isn't it liberals who are always going on about how stereotyping a race is racism".

    Do I think the people who did these ad's are racist? Hard to say, I'd probably guess "no" but its almost pointless to even make a judgement of an entire persons being based on something like that. However...to me...these ad's are an example of taking ones prejudiced stereotypes about a race and putting those prejudiced thoughts into actual action in a physical, and in my opinion negative, manner. When prejudice goes from thought to action and especially negative action, to me that begins to edge into "racism" territory. To each their own on whether they agree with this being "prejduiced" or "stereotyping" and how they view racism.



    An exception for one localized area of hundreds of thousands within the United States. These "exceptions" to the rule are not rare. Are they very common? No. But this isn't like a 1 in a 100 situation here. Which is why this idiotic stereotyping of white people as having never been viewed as their race, having never had people not treat them in certain positive ways because of their race, not to mention the ridiculousness of boiling these very interactions down simply to race is dumb and prejudiced. It's built off this assumption and notion and presentation that all white people are the same and experience the same and are treated the same based singularly off the color of their skin in all situations.



    Are you seriously suggesting the amount of minority heavy neighborhoods, establishments, businesses, and other locations across the country are as small in sampling as the amount of NBA/NFL/Hip Hop people are to the total black populatoin? Not to mention one need not simply go to a minority heavy location to experience it. Based on the idiocy of this campaign we're to imagine that every minority that a white person runs into views and treats them as if they're raceless at worst and positively because they're white at best.

    This is not suggesting that becuase a few outliers the rest doesn't exist. It's suggesting that because a minority of situations, but still a relevant amount, exist in a sort way that it's ridiculous to suggest that such minority simply doesn't exist because the majority happens more often.

    You approve of stereotyping and making broad sweeping suggestions of individuals based singularly on nothing but their race as a means of fighting racism because...hey, it's done to whites so that's okay. To me, you're supporting something that is actually damaging to the discussion of race in this country and contributing to the very mindset and notion that it supposedly wishes to fight.
    Basically my response is what TPD said. You can't talk about white privilege without using generalized language. Just like you can't talk about gender discrimination, discrimination against homosexuals, etc. without using generalized language. We're talking about groups here. Generalized language is inherent to the nature of the discussion. Generalities permeate these discussions because it's necessary. Doesn't mean that the claim that white privilege exists, and point out that it exists, is illegitimate simply because it involves generalities and generalized language.
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