• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/226]

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

bicycleman said:
Just think if Bush was the President and exerted this type of executive privilege to cover up a crime. I can just see what CNN and MSNBC would be saying. CNN is busy sugar coating Obama's latest executive action as we speak.
Click to expand...

No... Bush would've never done such a thing...


 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

clownboy said:
Yes, it certainly suggests he's guilty of something (or someone whom he's protecting is). Considering this is the president who promises unrivaled transparency from his administration, and the folks he's keeping the docs from are an OVERSIGHT committee (something you conveniently keep forgetting).
Click to expand...

So you think that Obama should roll over and give up whatever Congress requests, regardless of whether the request is reasonable? You don't think that would be an abrogation of his responsibility to maintain the independence of the executive branch?
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

donsutherland1 said:
3. Look into the matter of prosector conduct vis-a-vis the cases in question. If the prosecutors' caution was reasonable in that more evidence was necessary before arrests were made, then that should be the end of that angle. If, however, their unwillingness to seek indictments was unreasonable e.g., evidence for obtaining an indictment was more than sufficient, then appropriate measures to deal with that problem should be undertaken.
Click to expand...

As to this point, Eban’s article states ‘Terry Goddard, Arizona's Attorney General from 2003 to 2011, says of federal prosecutors, "They demanded that every i be dotted, every t be crossed, and after a while, it got to be nonsensical."

She was on Rachel Maddow tonight and discussed this prosecutor issue further but stated the she could learn very little about the shortcomings. She seemed to imply some covert coverup with respect to them and their actions. It COULD be that Holder or an associate had directed the prosecutors to be ‘less cooperative’ and may be documented. This MAY be what they are resisting…but I am merely speculating.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

Interesting:

In Fast and Furious, agents for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives allowed assault guns bought by “straw purchasers” to “walk,” which meant ending surveillance on weapons suspected to be en route to Mexican drug cartels.

The tactic, which was intended to allow agents to track criminal networks by finding the guns at crime scenes, was condemned after two guns that were part of the operation were found at U.S. Border Patrol agent Brian Terry’s murder scene.

Darrell Issa Puts Details of Secret Wiretap Applications in Congressional Record : Roll Call News

I think allowing guns to walk which would enable them to be tracked t criminal networks AFTER they have been used in a crime...is criminal. I wonder if the judge that approved the operation knew this detail.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

Dickieboy said:
Interesting:

In Fast and Furious, agents for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives allowed assault guns bought by “straw purchasers” to “walk,” which meant ending surveillance on weapons suspected to be en route to Mexican drug cartels.
Click to expand...


Except the ATF agent in charge says that he never authorized that.

The tactic, which was intended to allow agents to track criminal networks by finding the guns at crime scenes, was condemned after two guns that were part of the operation were found at U.S. Border Patrol agent Brian Terry’s murder scene.
Click to expand...

Again, ATF denies that they ever authorized that tactic.

I think allowing guns to walk which would enable them to be tracked t criminal networks AFTER they have been used in a crime...is criminal. I wonder if the judge that approved the operation knew this detail.
Click to expand...

And still, that was not their intent.

What I think is criminal is pillorying the men and women who are busting their butts and putting their lives on the line to try to stop the illegal flow of guns which is estimated to be 2000 guns A DAY — and all in a political game to trip up President Obama.
 
Last edited:
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

AdamT said:


Except the ATF agent in charge says that he never authorized that.



Again, ATF denies that they ever authorized that tactic.



And still, that was not their intent.

What I think is criminal is pillorying the men and women who are busting their butts and putting their lives on the line to try to stop the illegal flow of guns which is estimated to be 2000 guns A DAY — and all in a political game to trip up President Obama.
Click to expand...

Did you read the article?
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

Let me give your tactic a try:

AdamT said:
Except the ATF agent in charge says that he never authorized that.
Click to expand...


Yes they did
Again, ATF denies that they ever authorized that tactic.
Click to expand...

Yes they did

And still, that was not their intent.
Click to expand...

Yes it was

What I think is criminal is pillorying the men and women who are busting their butts and putting their lives on the line to try to stop the illegal flow of guns which is estimated to be 2000 guns A DAY — and all in a political game to trip up President Obama.
Click to expand...

Lives on the line stopping the flow by allowing guns to ‘walk’??? It seems to me the ‘whoever’ in charge is foolishly putting other’s lives on the line. I could care less who the president is. When Bush did it it was wrong. When Obama did it it was wrong. The law is not partisan. Further, the excuse advanced that FnF was a ploy to promote gun control is just stupid. As has been stated repeatedly ‘Gunrunner’ began under Bush who was/is a staunch second amendment supporter. This undermines the ‘gun control’ premise on face.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

Dickieboy said:
Did you read the article?
Click to expand...

The link wasn't working earlier.

Here's the most interesting part:

The wiretap applications are under court seal, and releasing such information to the public would ordinarily be illegal. But Issa appears to be protected by the Speech or Debate Clause in the Constitution, which offers immunity for Congressional speech, especially on a chamber’s floor.
Click to expand...

So you want to keep trying to argue that there would be no risk of disclosure if Holder released to Issa 80,000 pages of documents including sensitive information about ongoing investigations? You want to keep claiming that Holder has no good reason? Because it appears that none other than the chairman of the committee has already published confidential, sealed documents, for which he could be prosecuted BUT FOR CONGRESSIONAL IMMUNITY!! Jebus Christ.

As for the rest of the article, it says nothing that hasn't already been addressed. Yes they knew that alleged straw purchasers were buying ****loads of guns, and yes they suspected that they were being purchased for illegal export to Mexico, and YES, there is nothing illegal about someone buying a ****load of guns in Arizona and NO, simply suspecting that they may be transported to Mexico does not provide probable cause for an arrest or legal cover to seize the weapons.
 
Last edited:
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

AdamT said:
The link wasn't working earlier.
Click to expand...

So to answer MY question, you hadn’t…but it wasn’t your fault. Thank you for your honesty.

Here's the most interesting part:
Click to expand...

Yeah, I thought that to be quite ‘fishy’. But what was entered into the record was a letter from Issa to Cummings that included ‘quotes from and describes in detail a secret wiretap application’ and not the specific document…without reading it one questions how revealing/illegal it actually is. IMO they also need to subpoena Bush’s people to ascertain their complicity in this whole scheme.

So you want to keep trying to argue that there would be no risk of disclosure if Holder released to Issa 80,000 pages of documents including sensitive information about ongoing investigations? You want to keep claiming that Holder has no good reason?
Click to expand...

I not have argued that nor claimed Holder has no good reason. Are you arguing that out of the 80k (I’ve heard 142k but whatever) only ~7,800 are ‘non-sensitive’, especially since the majority of those released so far have been heavily redacted? If he gave only 1 more and cleared up the issue I would be happy, but if he released 50k more and no resolution was found I would still want more.

As for the rest of the article, it says nothing that hasn't already been addressed.
Click to expand...

I didn’t already know ‘wiretap applications were signed by senior DOJ officials in the department’s criminal division’ or that ‘tactic, which was intended to allow agents to track criminal networks by finding the guns at crime scenes’. It has been claimed that the operation was handled by local ATF and DOJ was ‘outside the loop’ but this appears to contradict this. As to waiting for crimes to be committed whereby enabling them to find guns, I hadn’t heard this either but surely sound stupid if not illegal.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

AdamT said:
So you think that Obama should roll over and give up whatever Congress requests, regardless of whether the request is reasonable? You don't think that would be an abrogation of his responsibility to maintain the independence of the executive branch?
Click to expand...

No, I think Atty General Holder should. The docs were not requested from the White House or the POTUS. Not up to them to decide what is "reasonable" to the investigators.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

clownboy said:
No, I think Atty General Holder should. The docs were not requested from the White House or the POTUS. Not up to them to decide what is "reasonable" to the investigators.
Click to expand...
sure it is something the executive must address recognizing DOJ is an executive agency/department
see this: Federal Executive Branch | USA.gov
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

Dickieboy said:
Yeah, I thought that to be quite ‘fishy’. But what was entered into the record was a letter from Issa to Cummings that included ‘quotes from and describes in detail a secret wiretap application’ and not the specific document…without reading it one questions how revealing/illegal it actually is. IMO they also need to subpoena Bush’s people to ascertain their complicity in this whole scheme.
Click to expand...

It's hard to tell from the article what was included.

I not have argued that nor claimed Holder has no good reason. Are you arguing that out of the 80k (I’ve heard 142k but whatever) only ~7,800 are ‘non-sensitive’, especially since the majority of those released so far have been heavily redacted? If he gave only 1 more and cleared up the issue I would be happy, but if he released 50k more and no resolution was found I would still want more.
Click to expand...

I would guess that documents turned over are the ones that DOJ determined to be both non-sensitive AND relevant to the investigation.

I didn’t already know ‘wiretap applications were signed by senior DOJ officials in the department’s criminal division’ or that ‘tactic, which was intended to allow agents to track criminal networks by finding the guns at crime scenes’. It has been claimed that the operation was handled by local ATF and DOJ was ‘outside the loop’ but this appears to contradict this. As to waiting for crimes to be committed whereby enabling them to find guns, I hadn’t heard this either but surely sound stupid if not illegal.
Click to expand...

My reading of the article is that the section in bold above was editorial comment by the author — not something spelled out in the wiretap request. That, of course, is Issa's theory and the right wing conspiracy theory that's driving this kangaroo court: that the Obama administration wanted US guns to be found at crime scenes so they could use it as an excuse to enact stricter gun laws. Why this would be necessary is beyond me, given that Mexican authorities have already confiscated tens of thousands of US guns from crime scenes....
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

justabubba said:
sure it is something the executive must address recognizing DOJ is an executive agency/department
see this: Federal Executive Branch | USA.gov
Click to expand...

No, again, the Chief Executive was not subpoenaed. Were records from the White House or the POTUS subpoenaed? No. This is an investigative matter. The Atty General is who they're talking to because this is his job - not the president's. The president may direct the Atty General, even fire him, but he can't take his place and do his job.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

clownboy said:
No, again, the Chief Executive was not subpoenaed. Were records from the White House or the POTUS subpoenaed? No. This is an investigative matter. The Atty General is who they're talking to because this is his job - not the president's. The president may direct the Atty General, even fire him, but he can't take his place and do his job.
Click to expand...

It's still covered under the deliberative process arm of executive privelege.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

bicycleman said:
Just think if Bush was the President and exerted this type of executive privilege to cover up a crime. I can just see what CNN and MSNBC would be saying. CNN is busy sugar coating Obama's latest executive action as we speak.
Click to expand...

which he did and they did.....
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

clownboy said:
No, again, the Chief Executive was not subpoenaed. Were records from the White House or the POTUS subpoenaed? No. This is an investigative matter. The Atty General is who they're talking to because this is his job - not the president's. The president may direct the Atty General, even fire him, but he can't take his place and do his job.
Click to expand...

but the AG DOES work at the direction of the POTUS
where where all you folks hiding during civics class?
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

Dickieboy said:
Lives on the line stopping the flow by allowing guns to ‘walk’??? It seems to me the ‘whoever’ in charge is foolishly putting other’s lives on the line. I could care less who the president is. When Bush did it it was wrong. When Obama did it it was wrong. The law is not partisan. Further, the excuse advanced that FnF was a ploy to promote gun control is just stupid. As has been stated repeatedly ‘Gunrunner’ began under Bush who was/is a staunch second amendment supporter. This undermines the ‘gun control’ premise on face.
Click to expand...

The difference between Bush's Wide Receiver and Fast and Furious is that Wide Receiver was done in conjunction with the Mexican government. GPS devices were placed on each weapon and Mexican agents followed them as they crossed into Mexico. It was an attempt to find the drug cartels. The Mexican government was never notified of Fast and Furious. There was no attempt to follow the weapons. The operation was run by Dennis Burke the US Attorney for the District of Arizona and a political appointee of the Obama administration.
Burke was a lawyer for the democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee in 1994 when the assault weapons ban was enacted. When Burke was nominated for his position he stated that Obama and Holder had already let it be known what they wanted done. Holder was on record that he wanted to reinstitute the ban on the sale of assault weapons. Because of Burke's prior involvement with the previous assault weapons ban and the fact that no attempt was ever made to follow the weapons and the Mexican government's cooperation or permission were never sought, some people became suspicious about the real purpose of the operation.
Several weeks before Agent Terry was murdered Burke sent the following email:
Burke responded, “Would love to chat. We are about to indict around [REDACTED] clowns for a Gun Trafficking to Mexico operation. It's a T-III investigation that we have been working w/ATF for a long time and IRS is all over some money laundering charges. It’s going to bring a lot of attention to straw purchasing of assault weapons. Some of the weapons bought by these clowns in Arizona have been directly traced to murders of elected officials in Mexico by the Cartels, so Katie-bar-the-door when we unveil this baby4
Burke resigned in September 2011 when the heat got too intense.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/oba...ult-weapons-ban-ran-fast-and-furious?tw_p=twt
 
Last edited:
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

jerry7 said:
The difference between Bush's Wide Receiver and Fast and Furious is that Wide Receiver was done in conjunction with the Mexican government.
Click to expand...

Stop right there because it's bull****. The operation was not created with the cooperation of the Mexican government and it was started without their knowledge.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

AdamT said:
Stop right there because it's bull****. The operation was not created with the cooperation of the Mexican government and it was started without their knowledge.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but you are incorrect on that....

Dubbed "Operation Wide Receiver," the Bush-era operation was run out of Tucson between 2006 and 2007, ending before Bush left office and before Fast and Furious began under Obama in 2009. The differences between it and Fast and Furious are vast, starting with the fact that Wide Receiver produced no dead bodies.

Subscribe to the IBD Editorials Podcast
Operation Wide Receiver used the common law enforcement tactic of "controlled delivery" in which the illegal sales of weapons were allowed to take place, the movements of the weapons were closely monitored and the end purchasers were then apprehended. It involved gun-tracing, not gun-walking.

Under the "controlled delivery" of Wide Receiver, agents didn't just write down the serial numbers and let the guns disappear as in Fast and Furious. They closely and physically followed the guns from American dealers to straw purchasers to Mexican buyers.

Most importantly, Wide Receiver was run in close cooperation with Mexican authorities, who were kept in the dark on Fast and Furious.

In contrast ATF agents involved in Fast and Furious have testified that they were ordered not to track the weapons and in cases where interdiction was possible they were ordered to stand down and actually watch the weapons walk.

White House Falsely Blames Bush-Era Wide Receiver For Fast And Furious - Investors.com
Click to expand...


Like it or not, this was a total Obama screw up from beginning to end. And all for the misguided end of duping America into believing their propaganda of American guns flooding to Mexico, so that this administration could attack the 2nd amendment.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

Issa has a mole in the Justice Dept. Issa already has the documents, but they can't be used because they were disclosed improperly by the mole. But the specificity of the documents shows that AG Holder lied about the number of warrants, the contents of the warrants, and the intended purpose of the warrants. If Obama is reelected and the Democrats don't retake the House this matter will drag on like Iran-Contra.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

Albert Di Salvo said:
Issa has a mole in the Justice Dept. Issa already has the documents, but they can't be used because they were disclosed improperly by the mole. But the specificity of the documents shows that AG Holder lied about the number of warrants, the contents of the warrants, and the intended purpose of the warrants. If Obama is reelected and the Democrats don't retake the House this matter will drag on like Iran-Contra.
Click to expand...

And your proof of this charge is found where exactly?
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

j-mac said:
Yep, keep laughing...This could be liberals worst nightmare.
Click to expand...

It could be but it wont.:mrgreen:
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

j-mac said:
Sorry, but you are incorrect on that....
Click to expand...

Sorry, but YOU are incorrect on that.

Among these misconceptions being repeated: that no Wide Receiver guns “walked” to Mexico because they were all controlled deliveries; that no one was killed; that the Mexican government was fully informed; that RFID tracking devices were placed in all the guns; and that the program was shut down at the first sign of danger.

Gun dealer and writer Mike Detty was a central figure in Wide Receiver, who, in his capacity as confidential informant for ATF, sold 450 rifles and handguns to suspected traffickers. As Paul Barrett reported in Bloomberg Businessweek, “The vast majority of the guns were never recovered by U.S. authorities.” This means control was not maintained on all deliveries, and it is impossible to tell if any people have been killed, and if so, how many. Still, it's crucial to note Detty was told that surveillance would be maintained, and he took great personal risk to assist law enforcement.

...

As for the Mexican government being informed, the Businessweek article refers to “fleeting contacts with Mexican police,” and Gun Rights Examiner reported on a Tucson operation “launched out of ATF’s Phoenix field division” in 2007 in which Mexican police said they never saw a car agents on the U.S. side had tracked crossing the border. That said, it appears to have been a different case than Wide Receiver, so this correspondent again queried Detty.

“All I can tell you is what the first prosecutor on OWR told me,” he answered. “A couple years after the case ended we met a gun show. He and his son purchased rifles from me and I handed him a business card.”

“When I mentioned Wide Receiver he knew who I was immediately and we talked over an hour,” Detty recalled. “‘I can't believe those f-ing ATF guys had you selling guns from your house-you're lucky to be alive,’ the prosecutor said. When I asked why OWR was never prosecuted he told me, ‘ATF lied to me about the Mexican's cooperation. I don't mean the field agents you worked with, I mean at a higher level. Once I found out that the case was based on a lie I declined it. Why would I go into court with a case where I have to sacrifice my personal integrity and credibility because ATF lied.’"

Truth about Operation Wide Receiver important to determine - National gun rights | Examiner.com
Click to expand...

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/the-guns-that-got-away-11172011.html

A report issued on January 30 by the Minority Staff of the House Oversight Committee, indicates that ATF hoped to coordinate with Mexican law enforcement during Wide Receiver, but the idea was never executed in practice.


The evidence also indicates that, between March 2006 and mid-2007, ATF agents had contemporaneous knowledge of planned sales of firearms to known straw purchasers and repeatedly designed surveillance operations of these illegal firearms purchases without effectuating arrests. According to documents obtained by the Committee, agents avoided interdicting weapons despite having the legal authority to do so in order to build a bigger case. Despite repeated failed attempts to coordinate surveillance with Mexican law enforcement, the ATF agents continued to attempt these operations.


Talking Points Memo has also noted that claims about coordination with Mexican law enforcement during Wide Receiver are false.


One of the distinctions that Republicans have drawn between Operation Fast and Furious, the flawed investigation that allowed weapons to "walk" into Mexico during the Obama administration, and Operation Wide Receiver, which did the same during the Bush administration, is that authorities who took part in the earlier investigation were coordinating their efforts with Mexican authorities.

"The difference in the previous administration is there was coordination with the Mexican government," Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) said at a hearing in December. "They made a real effort under Wide Receiver to pass off a small amount of weapons and track them."

But new documents DOJ disclosed to congressional investigators on Thursday appear to indicate that ATF officials didn't even consider looping Mexican authorities in on their operation until several months after the investigation began and ATF had already lost track of weapons that likely ended up in Mexico.

The selection of emails indicate that officials discussed the possibility of working with Mexican officials but only talk about it only in theory.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201206150011
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom