• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/226]

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

AdamT said:
Yep, 11 hearings, 8,000 pages of documents, no evidence of any WH involvement -- no CASE.
Click to expand...

LOL. Right. You make it sound like Issa got to pick those cards out of the WHOLE deck that was fanned out in front of him. Holder picked out a few of the cards, while looking at them, dealt a them to Issa and dared him to make a winning hand out of them. When Issa asked for some faces and aces, Holder said sorry but, those are the excutive only cards. ;-)
 
Last edited:
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

AdamT said:
And around and round we go.... Maybe the courts will decide. Maybe the OIG investigation will clear it up. Otherwise we're both just guessing.
Click to expand...

The courts won't decide (unless it's about the application of EP). The OIG investigation is already off the table/considered tainted. I'm not guessing. As explained it's what oversight is. Sometimes the investigation into POSSIBLE government malfeasance uncovers some wrongdoing, sometimes it doesn't. The investigations are still a matter of the job.

A special prosecutor will end up being appointed and then we'll know the result of the investigation. All this obstruction inbetween is a "case" in and of itself.
 
Last edited:
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

clownboy said:
The courts won't decide (unless it's about the application of EP). The OIG investigation is already off the table/considered tainted. I'm not guessing. As explained it's what oversight is. Sometimes the investigation into POSSIBLE government malfeasance uncovers some wrongdoing, sometimes it doesn't. The investigations are still a matter of the job.

A special prosecutor will end up being appointed and then we'll know the result of the investigation. All this obstruction inbetween is a "case" in and of itself.
Click to expand...

Unless you've seen the documents you are guessing.

One thing that's certain is that Issa's request is absurd. There can't possibly be 100,000 pages that are relevent to this investigation.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

AdamT said:
Unless you've seen the documents you are guessing.
Click to expand...

No, that would be you. YOU are guessing that those documents contain nothing implicating the admin in this operation or any coverup. Me? I'm not guessing one way or the other. To be fair, I am suspicious, but only because of the obstruction. Obstruction makes me suspicious. As I said, I'm not guessing, I'm asserting it's his job to investigate for possible government wrongdoing. Whether he finds it or not, the investigation should still be done - and not obstructed.

AdamT said:
One thing that's certain is that Issa's request is absurd. There can't possibly be 100,000 pages that are relevent to this investigation.
Click to expand...

And how do you know that? Just guessing are you?
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

clownboy said:
No, that would be you. YOU are guessing that those documents contain nothing implicating the admin in this operation or any coverup. Me? I'm not guessing one way or the other. To be fair, I am suspicious, but only because of the obstruction. Obstruction makes me suspicious. As I said, I'm not guessing, I'm asserting it's his job to investigate for possible government wrongdoing. Whether he finds it or not, the investigation should still be done - and not obstructed.



And how do you know that? Just guessing are you?
Click to expand...
Guilty people tend to be less cooperative.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

clownboy said:
No, that would be you. YOU are guessing that those documents contain nothing implicating the admin in this operation or any coverup. Me? I'm not guessing one way or the other. To be fair, I am suspicious, but only because of the obstruction. Obstruction makes me suspicious. As I said, I'm not guessing, I'm asserting it's his job to investigate for possible government wrongdoing. Whether he finds it or not, the investigation should still be done - and not obstructed.



And how do you know that? Just guessing are you?
Click to expand...

We are both guessing. You are guessing that Issa's requests aren't wildly overbroad and you're guessing that his motive is to get to the bottom of this and not to simply dog Obama at every conceivable opportunity.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

AdamT said:
No, it isn't his job to do many investigations. It's his job to do AS MANY investigations as the facts warrant. It isn't his job to establish a permanent war court designed to trip up the president by mucking around in every conceivable decision. Unless it is a republican in office, and a democrat sits at the chair position.
Click to expand...

I added that Adam only to highlight the truth of the matter when it comes to your thought here.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

AdamT said:
We are both guessing. You are guessing that Issa's requests aren't wildly overbroad and you're guessing that his motive is to get to the bottom of this and not to simply dog Obama at every conceivable opportunity.
Click to expand...

The difference is my so-called guesses are based in the fact that he is the Chairman of Congressional Oversight and Government Reform and that is the job of the chair of the COGR. Yours? On your bias alone.

Btw, if you want, you can read about it here.

Oversight Committee Mission Statement
We exist to secure two fundamental principles. First, Americans have a right to know that the money Washington takes from them is well spent. And second, Americans deserve an efficient, effective government that works for them. Our duty on the Oversight and Government Reform Committee is to protect these rights.

Our solemn responsibility is to hold government accountable to taxpayers, because taxpayers have a right to know what they get from their government. We will work tirelessly, in partnership with citizen-watchdogs, to deliver the facts to the American people and bring genuine reform to the federal bureaucracy.

This is the mission of the Oversight and Government Reform Committee.

Welcome
Welcome, and thank you for visiting the Web site of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. We hope you will find the information here useful, interesting and easily accessible.

The Committee on Oversight and Government Reform has legislative jurisdiction over the District of Columbia, the government procurement process, federal personnel systems, the Postal Service and other matters. Our primary responsibility, however, is oversight of virtually everything government does – from national security to homeland security grants, from federal workforce policies to regulatory reform and reorganization authority, from information technology procurements at individual agencies to government-wide data security standards.

As the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, we will work with our colleagues in the minority to exercise effective oversight over the federal government and will work proactively to investigate and expose waste, fraud, and abuse.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

AdamT said:
We are both guessing. You are guessing that Issa's requests aren't wildly overbroad and you're guessing that his motive is to get to the bottom of this and not to simply dog Obama at every conceivable opportunity.
Click to expand...


Awwww poor wittle Obama...He's just being picked on by the nasty ol republicans....:cry:

give me a break, Obama and his corrupt band of thug criminals is a feather step away from declaring a dictatorship, and ripping up the Constitution on national TV in a primetime gala of progressive whirl.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

clownboy said:
The difference is my so-called guesses are based in the fact that he is the Chairman of Congressional Oversight and Government Reform and that is the job of the chair of the COGR. Yours? On your bias alone.
Click to expand...

Right, and Holder is the U.S. Attorney General -- the top law enforcement official in the country. His job is to enforce the laws of the United States. But due to your bias you assume than that this committee chair, who has already demonstrated that he's hell-bent on pinning something on Obama, is the more credible character.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

AdamT said:
Right, and Holder is the U.S. Attorney General -- the top law enforcement official in the country. His job is to enforce the laws of the United States. But due to your bias you assume than that this committee chair, who has already demonstrated that he's hell-bent on pinning something on Obama, is the more credible character.
Click to expand...

Than the guy who let FALN terrorists go so that Hillary could get a Senate seat? Hell Yeah!


j-mac
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

AdamT said:
Right, and Holder is the U.S. Attorney General -- the top law enforcement official in the country. His job is to enforce the laws of the United States. But due to your bias you assume than that this committee chair, who has already demonstrated that he's hell-bent on pinning something on Obama, is the more credible character.
Click to expand...

Well I do think Holder's credibility is lacking, but not solely because of this issue. But that has nothing to do with my arguments here other than his obstruction in this investigation has been informative. You're switching goal posts again. Your intial assertion was that it's not the job of the committee to investigate possible wrongdoing in the agencies of government and that this matter should not be investigated.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

LaMidRighter said:
Nobody is saying a hand picked independent counsel that I have seen, actually that would be a contradiction in terms. What IS needed is an independent counsel that can look at the facts at hand and decide whether prosecution is warranted or not. You have to admit Cap that the administration is engaging in awfully fishy behavior. As many have pointed out, myself included, we want the same standard that we would be held to applied for this federal action. I may not knowingly supply any type of weapon for commission or possible commission of a crime nor may I transfer in any way to someone who is a known criminal under federal law. This is exactly what has been done under the F&F program and for suspect reasons, it is only proper that someone be held fully accountable.

Simply someone who will uphold the law.


Not possible, but someone with integrity not affiliated with the DOJ would be a great start.
You are better than the ad homs CA, much better.
Click to expand...

It's fishy because they tell us it's fishy. Hell, Washinton is fishy. Politics in general, IMO, is contrived of scandal and charletons. The thing is, I feel like I am stuck in a scene on the movie Groundhog Day. I have seen these "fishy" stunts pulled by reichwingers when the tree huggers go nuts, as the reichwingers defend the percieved attrocity. And now I see the reichwingers going nuts over something "fishy" they would have more than tolerated if the pres had an "R" by his name and wasn't that socialist. muslim, foreign "Hussein Obama." Meanwhile, the treehugers go nuts defending Obama.

People aren't that much different no matter how much they would like to think they are. These days, you got your bloods and crips and you got your Republicans and Democrats. To me, they are all scumbags regardless of whether their bandana is red or blue.

This is nothing but an election year, political bull****. We have seen this before. Don't drink the Kool-Aid. Your GOP leaders, and Democrats as well, are akin to the Rev. Jim Jones. Don't drink the Kool-Aid. Unless you like getting played.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

Captain America said:
It's fishy because they tell us it's fishy. Hell, Washinton is fishy. Politics in general, IMO, is contrived of scandal and charletons. The thing is, I feel like I am stuck in a scene on the movie Groundhog Day. I have seen these "fishy" stunts pulled by reichwingers when the tree huggers go nuts, as the reichwingers defend the percieved attrocity. And now I see the reichwingers going nuts over something "fishy" they would have more than tolerated if the pres had an "R" by his name and wasn't that socialist. muslim, foreign "Hussein Obama." Meanwhile, the treehugers go nuts defending Obama.

People aren't that much different no matter how much they would like to think they are. These days, you got your bloods and crips and you got your Republicans and Democrats. To me, they are all scumbags regardless of whether their bandana is red or blue.

This is nothing but an election year, political bull****. We have seen this before. Don't drink the Kool-Aid. Your GOP leaders, and Democrats as well, are akin to the Rev. Jim Jones. Don't drink the Kool-Aid. Unless you like getting played.
Click to expand...


Me thinks you should take your own advice, noting on the bolded name calling, equating the political right as Nazi like is despicable, and you can shove that **** right up your ass.

j-mac
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

Captain America said:
It's fishy because they tell us it's fishy. Hell, Washinton is fishy. Politics in general, IMO, is contrived of scandal and charletons. The thing is, I feel like I am stuck in a scene on the movie Groundhog Day. I have seen these "fishy" stunts pulled by reichwingers when the tree huggers go nuts, as the reichwingers defend the percieved attrocity. And now I see the reichwingers going nuts over something "fishy" they would have more than tolerated if the pres had an "R" by his name and wasn't that socialist. muslim, foreign "Hussein Obama." Meanwhile, the treehugers go nuts defending Obama.
Click to expand...
This has nothing to do with party affiliation. Sure, there have been partisan witch hunts, from both parties and under every administration since the late 1800s, this isn't a witch hunt. The fact is that a bungled operation caused multiple deaths, and the partisans from the side it came from are saying "no big deal, it's a Repulbican witch hunt". Sorry, I call bull**** on that, if any one of us did this we'd never see the free side of a prison gate in our natural lives, nor should we. The F&F scandal facilitated criminal access to weapons, was done without the prior knowledge of another country(something we would consider an act of war), involved multiple violations of federal law, and is now being obfuscated by the people in question. There are fishy situations, then there are scandals, then there are major violations, this fits the first and last.

People aren't that much different no matter how much they would like to think they are. These days, you got your bloods and crips and you got your Republicans and Democrats. To me, they are all scumbags regardless of whether their bandana is red or blue.
Click to expand...
I agree here. Where the problem comes is that the ones in suits have the idea that we work for them, and now they won't even give us the basic courtesy of holding their own accountable, the worst part is that some citizens are fine with that because it fits their party line. With all the trumped up stuff over the years this is a pretty solid case on it's surface, at some time these politicians and their subordinates must be held accountable, this is more than an appropriate start.

This is nothing but an election year, political bull****. We have seen this before. Don't drink the Kool-Aid. Your GOP leaders, and Democrats as well, are akin to the Rev. Jim Jones. Don't drink the Kool-Aid. Unless you like getting played.
Click to expand...
I disagree, this issue started with the leaks at my earliest memory as of last year, when all the spiel about "our guns" endangering Mexican citizens came up, that was as blatant an anti-second move as I've seen in years. Then the trail comes out and we find out it was a DOJ move that allowed those questionable weapons to get directly into criminal hands, this isn't politics as usual, this is a criminal investigation and necessary. As I have stated, something we would face felony charges for, the issuers of said policy are now claiming exemption from.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

j-mac said:
Me thinks you should take your own advice, noting on the bolded name calling, equating the political right as Nazi like is despicable, and you can shove that **** right up your ass.

j-mac
Click to expand...

:lamo

Glad you noticed.
 
Last edited:
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

clownboy said:
Karl said:
Well then, tell us the truth about that crime you claim is being covered up. What is the crime, and who committed it?
Click to expand...
Good question. Release the docs and we'll all get to find out.
Click to expand...
So, in effect, you won't know what crime has been committed until you search the person's private papers. Of course, you have no legal reason to search the person's papers, because you have no crime you can charge them with. But you're sure that if you search the person's papers, without cause, you can find some crime they have committed.

This is the patriotic support of constitution rights that the right is always patting themselves on the back about?
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

Karl said:
So, in effect, you won't know what crime has been committed until you search the person's private papers. Of course, you have no legal reason to search the person's papers, because you have no crime you can charge them with. But you're sure that if you search the person's papers, without cause, you can find some crime they have committed.

This is the patriotic support of constitution rights that the right is always patting themselves on the back about?
Click to expand...


Hehehehehehe......

 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

j-mac said:
Well, first and foremost the crime right now is lying to congress...
Click to expand...
Your link shows no evidence of that crime.

1. The first memo is not addressed to the Atty Gen'l, it is addressed to the Atty Gen'l through the Acting Deputy Atty Gen'l. You therefore have no reasonable chain of custody that it even went to the Atty Gen'l's office, since it was addressed to the Deputy (unless you have evidenced that he passed it on to the A.G.)

2. The second exhibit, emails, are not addressed to the Atty Gen'l.

3. The third exhibit, an email addressed to the Atty Gen'l, mentions F&F in passing... one sentence over the course of three pages, which gives no details on F&F other than mentioning the name. Dated November 2010. You expect the Atty Gen'l to have photographic recall on one sentence in one email some six months later. If he does not exhibit this perfect photographic recall, then in your judgement he is lying. Riiiiiight :roll:

j-mac said:
Then you have Holders absolute refusal to turn over documents to congress for oversight, that would be if I am correct obstruction of a congressional investigation [...]
Click to expand...
No, it would be executive privilege. Take it to court if you like, but it is no crime. At least yet... it appears that the 4th Amendment will be repealed by the patriotic right ASAP.

j-mac said:
So now you have contempt of congress added in [...]
Click to expand...
Not yet, but facts don't seem to be the strong suit of your argument.

j-mac said:
So what is the answer of demo's/progressives to this? Why the race card of course! pathetic
Click to expand...
It does explain the lies and the hatred.

j-mac said:
Look, this is a cover up plain and simple.
Click to expand...
To a conspiracy theorist, yes. The tin foil hat forum is a few forums down. Pardon me if I don't meet you there . . . . .
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

Damn Karl!

You don't mess around, do you?

BAM!

Great post.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

ttwtt78640 said:
First of all, there is NO WAY that ONE ATF agent and a SINGLE U.S. DA in AZ were running, PUT IN CHARGE OF, an over $10 million dollar operation, in multiple locations within three states, involving hundreds (at least) of other agents in SEVERAL law enforcement organizations, federal, state and local and ALL of them just happened to lose their guns. [...]
Click to expand...
With such a sweeping allegation, I'm afraid you're going to have to supply some sort of organizational chart or something to help make your point. All facts available indicate the op was run of the the AZ area. You may also want to look at David Voth, Group Supervisor of Phoenix Group VII (source). I'm sorry I can't offer any evidence that will bring down the president, I really am. But you wouldn't want to do that if he's not guilty of anything, would you?

The agents, operating out of office space in downtown Phoenix, clashed with Voth and the agent running the case, Hope MacAllister, who they felt ignored their concerns. Neither Voth nor MacAllister responded to requests for comment.

Operation Fast and Furious: A gunrunning sting gone wrong - The Washington Post
Click to expand...
Has Issa deposed Voth? If so, has he released that testimony?
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

LaMidRighter said:
Guilty people tend to be less cooperative.
Click to expand...
So a failure to cooperate indicates guilt?
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

Karl said:
With such a sweeping allegation, I'm afraid you're going to have to supply some sort of organizational chart or something to help make your point. All facts available indicate the op was run of the the AZ area. You may also want to look at David Voth, Group Supervisor of Phoenix Group VII (source). I'm sorry I can't offer any evidence that will bring down the president, I really am. But you wouldn't want to do that if he's not guilty of anything, would you?


Has Issa deposed Voth? If so, has he released that testimony?
Click to expand...

So the two low to mid-level guys were offered up to take the fifth and that just ends it all? I don't have any reason to believe Obama was "in the loop", but certainly someone higher up he DHS/DOJ chain than these two WAS. If that was the extent of it then why not offer up ALL of the documents to prove it, swamp Issa and his staff with TONS of paperwork and shut him up? The innocent are USUALLY quite happy to cooperate. You do not lie for 10 months, retract that version, then stall for a few more months and finally boldly announce that you are not going to play nice any more. That does not look good even to Obama supporters (except maybe AdamT), you know, those that believed his "open and honest government" campaign lines.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

Karl said:
So, in effect, you won't know what crime has been committed until you search the person's private papers. Of course, you have no legal reason to search the person's papers, because you have no crime you can charge them with. But you're sure that if you search the person's papers, without cause, you can find some crime they have committed.

This is the patriotic support of constitution rights that the right is always patting themselves on the back about?
Click to expand...

What a bunch of trumped up idiotic bull****.

Holder as a public official has NO, NONE, ZERO expectation of privacy in his capacity as a constitutional officer, he is under congressional oversight as a condition of his function in office.

The only question I have is if you are of the intellectual level portrayed by your post or just desperate enough to have an emotional lever to use against those against you politically? Either way, this is a pathetic argument and should be enshrined in the basement for posterity.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

Karl said:
So a failure to cooperate indicates guilt?
Click to expand...


Failure to comply in court gets you what? A contempt citation. Whats Holder getting? A contempt citation.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom