Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/226]

Karl · Jun 23, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Μολὼν λαβέ;1060619406 said:
I don't recall that President Bush invoked executive privilege to prevent the release of documents to a congressional committee seeking information about the death of a federal agent related to his program either. [...]

That's because the documents being seeked by Issa's committee are not related to the death of Agent Terry.

By the way, righties -- if you're going to use his death as a platform for your attacks on the administration, the least you could do in respect is to use his name -- he's more than a political pawn, he's a real person.

Secondly, Agent Terry's death had nothing to do with Fast and Furious; he was not involved in that operation. He was a border patrol agent that stumbled across some bad guys in the desert in the night. Holder did not shoot him; neither did Obama.

OpportunityCost · Jun 23, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Karl said:
That's because the documents being seeked by Issa's committee are not related to the death of Agent Terry.

By the way, righties -- if you're going to use his death as a platform for your attacks on the administration, the least you could do in respect is to use his name -- he's more than a political pawn, he's a real person.

Secondly, Agent Terry's death had nothing to do with Fast and Furious; he was not involved in that operation. He was a border patrol agent that stumbled across some bad guys in the desert in the night. Holder did not shoot him; neither did Obama.

The documents being sought are to conclude what level of knowledge the White House in regards to operational control of Fast and Furious and how they chose to answer the subpeoneas. IE did they attempt to cover up White House involvement when they contended over and over that they were not involved at all.

Secondly, Agent Terry was killed by a gun that went across the border as a result of fast and furious. The American Government should not be in the business of allowing sales that would not normally occur so they can be funneled to drug cartels. Thats the entire point of this. Saying they would get the guns another way is well and good, but the government should not be facilitating that access without control over gun movement.

By the way lefties, respect for the office was pretty absent the 8 years Bush was in office. Not that Im into the name games with Obama's name, but it is what it is.

lpast · Jun 23, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

ReverendHellh0und said:
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Bigger article coming as this just happened.

i find it amazing how this administration is avoiding the government process to investigate the fast and furious debacle. Given this move, I am curious as to the opinions of others on this matter.

Bush used executive privledge far more than Obama...every president uses executive privledge to keep their dirty laundry in the hamper...this is nothing new

Karl · Jun 23, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

OpportunityCost said:
The documents being sought are to conclude what level of knowledge the White House in regards to operational control of Fast and Furious and how they chose to answer the subpeoneas. IE did they attempt to cover up White House involvement when they contended over and over that they were not involved at all. [...]

Then, like I, you disagree with that the other poster posted. So far, so good:

Μολὼν λαβέ;1060619406 said:
I don't recall that President Bush invoked executive privilege to prevent the release of documents to a congressional committee seeking information about the death of a federal agent related to his program either. [...]

OpportunityCost said:
Secondly, Agent Terry was killed by a gun that went across the border as a result of fast and furious. [...]

Oooh, sorry, the FBI has clearly stated that they have been unable to identify the gun that killed Agent Terry[SUP][1][/SUP]. That's been noted so many times here that to claim otherwise is pretty much an outright lie. But hey, thanks for the ride on the propaganda train, which runs on tracks that only seem to turn to the right . . . . . .

1.

Fast and Furious: Ballistics report from ATF agent’s killing - Documents - Los Angeles Times

Karl · Jun 23, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

OpportunityCost said:
[...] By the way lefties, respect for the office was pretty absent the 8 years Bush was in office. Not that Im into the name games with Obama's name, but it is what it is.

I was speaking of Agent Terry's name, and I'm rather stunned that you did not realize that.

Karl said:
Μολὼν λαβέ;1060619406 said:

I don't recall that President Bush invoked executive privilege to prevent the release of documents to a congressional committee seeking information about the death of a federal agent related to his program either. [...]

Click to expand...

That's because the documents being seeked by Issa's committee are not related to the death of Agent Terry.

By the way, righties -- if you're going to use his death as a platform for your attacks on the administration, the least you could do in respect is to use his name -- he's more than a political pawn, he's a real person. [...]

Grant · Jun 23, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Karl said:
That's because the documents being seeked by Issa's committee are not related to the death of Agent Terry.

By the way, righties -- if you're going to use his death as a platform for your attacks on the administration, the least you could do in respect is to use his name -- he's more than a political pawn, he's a real person.

Secondly, Agent Terry's death had nothing to do with Fast and Furious; he was not involved in that operation. He was a border patrol agent that stumbled across some bad guys in the desert in the night. Holder did not shoot him; neither did Obama.

Of course Brian Perry wasn't involved in F and F. He was a victim of it. It was Holder, and now Obama, who are involved in it.

Wake up America: Video- Dead Border Patrol Agent, Brian Terry, Parents Accuse White House Lying

Μολὼν λαβέ · Jun 23, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Karl said:
That's because the documents being seeked by Issa's committee are not related to the death of Agent Terry.

By the way, righties -- if you're going to use his death as a platform for your attacks on the administration, the least you could do in respect is to use his name -- he's more than a political pawn, he's a real person.

Secondly, Agent Terry's death had nothing to do with Fast and Furious; he was not involved in that operation. He was a border patrol agent that stumbled across some bad guys in the desert in the night. Holder did not shoot him; neither did Obama.

Please share your evidence with everyone here.

No, they didn't shoot him, they just provided the weapons to the bad guys who did.

OpportunityCost · Jun 23, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Karl said:
Then, like I, you disagree with that the other poster posted. So far, so good:

Oooh, sorry, the FBI has clearly stated that they have been unable to identify the gun that killed Agent Terry[SUP][1][/SUP]. That's been noted so many times here that to claim otherwise is pretty much an outright lie. But hey, thanks for the ride on the propaganda train, which runs on tracks that only seem to turn to the right . . . . . .

1.

Fast and Furious: Ballistics report from ATF agent’s killing - Documents - Los Angeles Times

Of course further ballistics testing would determine with certainty which weapon fired the bullet that killed Terry, would be nice if we could get that information released via subpeonea wouldnt it? You know the talking points, you just arent aware we know them as well. Go get some more, Ill be here.

Karl · Jun 23, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Grant said:
Of course Brian Perry wasn't involved in F and F. He was a victim of it. [...]

There is no conclusive evidence to that effect. Of course that has not, and will not, stop the right from dishonestly claiming it.

Agent Terry was a victim of the war on drugs (most likely; or whatever the bad guys he ran into were up to).

mac · Jun 23, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Karl said:
I thought that all constitutional rights should be protected.

I did not think that the excercise of constitutional rights was evidence of guilt.

However, it seems that those bedrock founding principles of liberty and freedom are no longer universally accepted and cherished.

Executive Privilege is not a constitutional right, nor does it cover every conversation the President has...as was proven by Nixon.

Karl · Jun 23, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

OpportunityCost said:
Of course further ballistics testing would determine with certainty which weapon fired the bullet that killed Terry [...]

No, it would not. According to the L.A. Times the bullet was too badly damaged.

This has all been posted before; did you not see it?

A source briefed on the FBI's findings said the bullet that killed Terry was badly damaged "and that's why the FBI only got a partial match to the weapons. It was just too badly fragmented." The source spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation is continuing.

Karl · Jun 23, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

mac said:
[1] Executive Privilege is not a constitutional right, [2] nor does it cover every conversation the President has...as was proven by Nixon.

1. The Supreme Court disagrees. "The concept of executive privilege is not mentioned explicitly in the United States Constitution, but the Supreme Court of the United States ruled it to be an element of the separation of powers doctrine, and/or derived from the supremacy of executive branch in its own area of Constitutional activity.[1]" (Wikipedia). Now you know

2. There may be exceptions, but I'm sure a reasonable/probable cause case would have to be made to a court (a review of the source above will confirm that) -- not a wild-eyed Kool-Aid-induced conspiracy theory that the GOP seems to generate on a weekly basis these days.

Donc · Jun 23, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Karl said:
1. The Supreme Court disagrees. "The concept of executive privilege is not mentioned explicitly in the United States Constitution, but the Supreme Court of the United States ruled it to be an element of the separation of powers doctrine, and/or derived from the supremacy of executive branch in its own area of Constitutional activity.[1]" (Wikipedia). Now you know

2. There may be exceptions, but I'm sure a reasonable/probable cause case would have to be made to a court (a review of the source above will confirm that) -- not a wild-eyed Kool-Aid-induced conspiracy theory that the GOP seems to generate on a weekly basis these days.

Here"s a preemptive strike before the screeching outcry starts about a link to wiki.:2wave:

<· Chief Justice Burger, writing for the majority in US v. Nixon noted: "Whatever the nature of the privilege of confidentiality of Presidential communications in the exercise of Art. II powers, the privilege can be said to derive from the supremacy of each branch within its own assigned area of constitutional duties. Certain powers and privileges flow from the nature of enumerated powers; the protection of the confidentiality of Presidential communications has similar constitutional underpinnings.United States v. Nixon, 418 U.S. 683 (1974) (Supreme Court opinion at FindLaw) >

FindLaw | Cases and Codes

Texmex · Jun 24, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

jimbo said:
No proof one way or the other. Strong suspicions, but as of now, no proof. That is why the investigation.
Holder is being held in contempt not because of executive privilege, but because at this point, there is no executive privilege. There is only the claim. Only the president can claim executive privilege, and he hasn't.

I see. It's just gossip on your part. Possibly a lie to boot.

Μολὼν λαβέ · Jun 24, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Karl said:
No, it would not. According to the L.A. Times the bullet was too badly damaged.

This has all been posted before; did you not see it?

Did you conveniently forget the rest of the story?

The rest of the story from the L.A. Times is that FBI forensics tests conducted on the two firearms at Agent Terry's murder scene concluded they could not determine which firearm was used to kill him.

Karl · Jun 24, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Μολὼν λαβέ;1060621747 said:
Did you conveniently forget the rest of the story?

The rest of the story from the L.A. Times is that FBI forensics tests conducted on the two firearms at Agent Terry's murder scene concluded they could not determine which firearm was used to kill him.

While that is the way the L.A. Times worded their story, it is not the way the FBI worded their report... and to the utter and absolute failure of your repeated argument, it does not mean that one of those two rifles fired the bullet.

mac · Jun 24, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Karl said:
1. The Supreme Court disagrees. "The concept of executive privilege is not mentioned explicitly in the United States Constitution, but the Supreme Court of the United States ruled it to be an element of the separation of powers doctrine, and/or derived from the supremacy of executive branch in its own area of Constitutional activity.[1]" (Wikipedia). Now you know

That doesn't make it a constitutional right. :shrug:

2. There may be exceptions, but I'm sure a reasonable/probable cause case would have to be made to a court (a review of the source above will confirm that) -- not a wild-eyed Kool-Aid-induced conspiracy theory that the GOP seems to generate on a weekly basis these days.

It's only acceptable purpose is national security. Law enforcement operations are not covered under national security.

Mason66 · Jun 24, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Karl said:
Given that the documents subpoenaed encompass only the time period after 2/4/11, after which the F and F 'scandal' had already broken, and given that Holder assigned an Inspector General to the case sometime in 2/11, and given that Obama spoke publicly about F and F on 3/23/11[SUP]1[/SUP], then it would be reasonable to assume that the subpoenaed documents would include the actions and communications of the president himself (I would presume he had also been informed of the IG investigation launched in February).

Issa is not looking for documents about F and F, or about the death of Agent Terry (again, shame on the right for using his death, and his family, as a political soapbox), he is looking for documents that might indicate a cover up, an intent to punish whistleblowers, or some other admission of knowledge that has not been made public. In other words, he doesn't give a **** about F and F, he's just trying to find some way to damage the administration after the fact.

1. ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is a very valid line of investigation especially after the DOJ provided a fake letter to the congress. Now they are obligated to find out who prepared the fake letter and what led up to it, among other things.

j-mac · Jun 24, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Mason66 said:
That is a very valid line of investigation especially after the DOJ provided a fake letter to the congress. Now they are obligated to find out who prepared the fake letter and what led up to it, among other things.

Every step of this could have been avoided by Holder just being straight with congress. Now he has dug a hole, and he keeps digging, while pulling Obama in with him.

j-mac

Mason66 · Jun 24, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

j-mac said:
Every step of this could have been avoided by Holder just being straight with congress. Now he has dug a hole, and he keeps digging, while pulling Obama in with him.

j-mac

That is absolutely true but when people think the rules don't apply to them, things like this happen.

Karl · Jun 24, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

mac said:
That doesn't make it a constitutional right. :shrug:

According to the Supreme Court it does. While you are free to disagree with them, sans any argument from you -- other than 'because I say so' -- then their argument carries more weight.

mac said:
It's only acceptable purpose is national security. Law enforcement operations are not covered under national security.

I'm just quoting this so that it's clear that -- in your opinion -- use of executive privilege is only acceptable for national security purposes. I'm not going to debate the issue, I just want it clear for everyone else.

And by the way, the Supreme Court disagrees with you :2razz:

Karl · Jun 24, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Mason66 said:
Karl said:

[...] Issa is not looking for documents about F and F, or about the death of Agent Terry (again, shame on the right for using his death, and his family, as a political soapbox), he is looking for documents that might indicate a cover up, an intent to punish whistleblowers, or some other admission of knowledge that has not been made public. In other words, he doesn't give a **** about F and F, he's just trying to find some way to damage the administration after the fact.

Click to expand...

That is a very valid line of investigation especially after the DOJ provided a fake letter to the congress. Now they are obligated to find out who prepared the fake letter and what led up to it, among other things.

I would agree with respect to the latter (whistleblowers), perhaps not with respect to the former (coverup; it would depend if a crime was being covered up).

However, my point is that Issa is not interested in F&F, nor is he interested in Agent Terry, which makes him a huge hypocrite, liar, and a real slimeball (for using Agent Terry's death for political gain). If Agent Terry had not been killed, Issa would have nowhere near the publicity he has on this issue, which makes Agent Terry's death the best thing that has happened for Issa's political ambitions on this issue, and I'm sure that he knows it and that is why he and his right wing extremist cohorts (like Fox News) are using it (when it is really unrelated to his investigation) -- and that is really, really low class. Slimeball class. Scum.

specklebang · Jun 24, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

In the end, I don't think this will affect one vote. We are so polarized as a nation that our "issues" take precedence of any kind of logic or behavior.

Every administration has scandals. Considering what a pack of crooks they all are, I'm amazed there are so few. This is stupidity covering up stupidity. Its like a Chinese puzzle box.

upsideguy · Jun 25, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

jimbo said:
The White House did not order a B & E. There is some question as to whether Nixon ordered it. The downfall of Nixon lay in the coverup and the lying about the issue. Nixon destroyed documents, most notably 26 or so minutes of a recording, and refused to give documents to Congress. Do you see a pattern here?

Several high level officials went to jail over Watergate, Nixon lost his job. Hopefully, the pattern will continue.
As for your assertion that a petty breakin in an office building compares to a botched program where 200 people were killed. I would have to disagree.

The CREP was centered in the White House.... John Dean was involved in the decision. It was corrupt politics had its highest.

Its a wild-ass stretch to come up with the notion that 200 people were killed by a botched program. The deaths of those people had nothing to do with F&F and everything to do with the drug wars. Unless you are suddenly telling its its not people that kill people, but guns that kill people you are really out on a limb that can not hold the weight on inchworm.

mac · Jun 25, 2012

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Karl said:
According to the Supreme Court it does. While you are free to disagree with them, sans any argument from you -- other than 'because I say so' -- then their argument carries more weight.

No, it means it's an implied power of the Executive Branch...not a constitutional right of the President.

I'm just quoting this so that it's clear that -- in your opinion -- use of executive privilege is only acceptable for national security purposes. I'm not going to debate the issue, I just want it clear for everyone else.

And by the way, the Supreme Court disagrees with you :2razz:

No, the supreme court agrees with me...that's why they said Nixon had to turn over his taped conversations from the oval office. :shrug:

I don't think anyone else needs you to clear it up. I stated it pretty clearly.

Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/226]

Karl

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