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Thread: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/226]

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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    So, the Presidential invocation of EP is proof of a crime?
    It's proof of President Obama keeping information from the American people. Why would he do this?

    Surely not to keep sensitive national security information confidential; that wouldn't further his bid for reelection.
    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Generalizations are stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Steel View Post
    The Second Amendment has nothing to do with guns.

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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

    Quote Originally Posted by Μολὼν λαβέ View Post
    It's proof of President Obama keeping information from the American people. Why would he do this?

    Surely not to keep sensitive national security information confidential; that wouldn't further his bid for reelection.
    Of course, if the president insists protecting the separation of power doctrine it means he must be guilty of something -- like protecting our constitutional framework from legislative branch overreaching.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post

    Have you cooperated as above? If the police want to search you, your home, your family, just in case you're doing something wrong, will you cooperate? You don't have anything to hide, do you?
    Excellent questions for President Obama and Mr. Holder.

    Their answers are no, no, and exert executive privilege.
    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Generalizations are stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Steel View Post
    The Second Amendment has nothing to do with guns.

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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Many of the guns that were doing damage in Mexico came from sources other than the US. If the guns were from the US they were likely guns given to the military that defected to the cartels in that corrupt **** hole.



    So not you're not happy with regulating the crap out of guns in this country, you want to tell the whole world how they should handle their guns....Good luck with that.



    Apparently Obama and Holder did, and two agents died as a result. Now the poor little picked on, piss ant President isn't man enough to take the embarrassment of his own decision to dupe the American people with this program, he tries to cover it up.



    Re election Campaign.



    On that we agree, however, we conservatives are getting used to expecting this kind of BS out of the One.



    Ah...BOB...Blame it on Bush.....Again, yawn!

    look, you know the differences I am sure, but I'll lay them out for you anyway...

    (1) First and foremost, operation Wide Receiver did not result in the death of a U.S. Border Patrol agent or an Immigrations and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officer. Fast and Furious did. The guns that ultimately killed Border Patrol agent Brian Terry and ICE officer Jamie Zapata were traced back to straw purchasers related to Fast and Furious. Zapata’s family filed a wrongful death suit against the U.S. Justice Department last week.

    Further, officials have confirmed that the guns from Fast and Furious have already killed hundreds of Mexican citizens and Holder has said on the record that they will likely kill many more. The total number of confirmed deaths so far from Wide Receiver: Zero.

    (2) Second, Wide Receiver, though flawed, was more of a gun-tracing operation than a gun-walking program. Gun-tracing involves putting specific safeguards in place to track firearms, such as RFID chips perhaps with video or aerial surveillance. Gun-walking is what happened in Fast and Furious, where ATF agents sold thousands of guns without a reliable way to recover them, apparently just hoping for the best.

    Some of the guns from Wide Receiver were implanted with RFID chips and were actively tracked electronically. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in Phoenix also implemented aerial surveillance tactics in an attempt to follow the weapons.

    However, problems reportedly arose due to poorly implanted RFID chips which were forced into the guns, bending the antennas and decreasing their effectiveness. Cartels and straw purchasers also eventually came up with creative ways to shake tracking maneuvers and overhead surveillance, such as driving in loops for hours until surveillance planes had to refuel.

    Those in charge of Fast and Furious took no similar steps to strengthen their chances of recovering walked guns other than recording the serial numbers before watching them disappear in the hands of Mexican drug cartels.

    In fact, ATF agents involved in Fast and Furious have previously testified that they were ordered to stand down and not track the weapons even when interdiction was possible and instead “took notes” and let the guns walk across the Mexico border.

    (3) Third, one must take into account the size and scope of the operations.

    Speaking to members of the Senate Judiciary Committee earlier this month, Holder said that “three hundred guns” were allowed to “walk” (although note the difference between “tracing” and “walking” above) in Wide Receiver. While there is no evidence that suggests otherwise, the figure is dwarfed by the approximately 2,000 firearms that walked in Fast and Furious. Roughly 1,400 guns were lost and about 700 have been recovered in Mexico and at crime scenes like the sites of Terry and Zapata’s murders.

    (4) Perhaps the most convincing piece of evidence proving the two operations are separate from each other is the fact that Wide Receiver was shut down in 2007 shortly after it was clear the program was a failure. This was before Obama was even in office and nearly two years before Fast and Furious began.

    Fast and Furious wasn’t shut down until late 2010 after the deaths of hundreds of Mexicans, a border agent and an ICE officer.

    (5) Finally, unlike Fast and Furious, officials involved in Wide Receiver were reportedly in close contact with Mexican authorities during the operation, though how involved Mexican officials were is not entirely known.

    What is known is that Mexican authorities were kept completely in the dark during Fast and Furious, according to the Mexican ambassador to the U.S. Mexico. He announced on June 1, 2012, that Mexico would be launching its own probe into Fast and Furious.

    It should be perfectly clear that both the Bush and Obama administration conducted two separate, flawed operations. One, however, was a much deadlier and larger operation.

    If there is evidence of wrongdoing, or false testimony related to operation Wide Receiver, those responsible should be held accountable. But the argument that Fast and Furious is all about “politics” and should just be swept under the rug because the previous administration also carried out a similar program is irresponsible."

    The 5 Biggest Differences Between Operations Fast and Furious and Wide Receiver | Video | TheBlaze.com

    But I am sure that you and other libs will continue to blame Bush while the rest of the country rolls its eyes every time you do.
    I am satisfied that you are now in agreement that at least the guns from F&F DO kill people and keeping guns from being sold in bulk in the U.S, to individuals would reduce gun violence worldwide.
    It is quite a jump for your side to finally admit that guns kill people so lets go from there.
    Last edited by iguanaman; 06-27-12 at 12:19 PM.

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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

    Here is part of a new article by Fortune magazine who investigated the whole incident. It makes it clear that no guns were intentionally allowed to "walk", they were legally purchased and there was nothing they could do about it, though they tried to get indictments. The House "investigation" is nothing but a partisan sham.

    FORTUNE -- In the annals of impossible assignments, Dave Voth's ranked high. In 2009 the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives promoted Voth to lead Phoenix Group VII, one of seven new ATF groups along the Southwest border tasked with stopping guns from being trafficked into Mexico's vicious drug war.

    Some call it the "parade of ants"; others the "river of iron." The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.

    Voth, 39, was a good choice for a Sisyphean task. Strapping and sandy-haired, the former Marine is cool-headed and punctilious to a fault. In 2009 the ATF named him outstanding law-enforcement employee of the year for dismantling two violent street gangs in Minneapolis. He was the "hardest working federal agent I've come across," says John Biederman, a sergeant with the Minneapolis Police Department. But as Voth left to become the group supervisor of Phoenix Group VII, a friend warned him: "You're destined to fail."

    Voth's mandate was to stop gun traffickers in Arizona, the state ranked by the gun-control advocacy group Legal Community Against Violence as having the nation's "weakest gun violence prevention laws." Just 200 miles from Mexico, which prohibits gun sales, the Phoenix area is home to 853 federally licensed firearms dealers. Billboards advertise volume discounts for multiple purchases.

    Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check. There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to resell the guns. "In Arizona," says Voth, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."

    By 2009 the Sinaloa drug cartel had made Phoenix its gun supermarket and recruited young Americans as its designated shoppers or straw purchasers. Voth and his agents began investigating a group of buyers, some not even old enough to buy beer, whose members were plunking down as much as $20,000 in cash to purchase up to 20 semiautomatics at a time, and then delivering the weapons to others.
    The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal - Fortune Features

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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Here is part of a new article by Fortune magazine who investigated the whole incident. It makes it clear that no guns were intentionally allowed to "walk", they were legally purchased and there was nothing they could do about it, though they tried to get indictments. The House "investigation" is nothing but a partisan sham.


    The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal - Fortune Features
    Come on now, we're supposed to demonize the law enforcement officers who are trying to solve this insane problem with virtually no support from Congress in terms of gun laws or enforcement funding ... and praise Congress for whining about the result of an operation that was necessary because Congress refuses to provide reasonable gun laws and adequate enforcement funding!!
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Come on now, we're supposed to demonize the law enforcement officers who are trying to solve this insane problem with virtually no support from Congress in terms of gun laws or enforcement funding ... and praise Congress for whining about the result of an operation that was necessary because Congress refuses to provide reasonable gun laws and adequate enforcement funding!!
    Yes it is failed Govt. personified. The Republicans are really into self-fullfilling prophecies. They are deterrmined to make Govt. the problem if it kills us all doing it.

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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    I am satisfied that you are now in agreement that at least the guns from F&F DO kill people and keeping guns from being sold in bulk in the U.S, to individuals would reduce gun violence worldwide.
    It is quite a jump for your side to finally admit that guns kill people so lets go from there.
    2) Second, Wide Receiver, though flawed, was more of a gun-tracing operation than a gun-walking program. Gun-tracing involves putting specific safeguards in place to track firearms, such as RFID chips perhaps with video or aerial surveillance. Gun-walking is what happened in Fast and Furious, where ATF agents sold thousands of guns without a reliable way to recover them, apparently just hoping for the best.
    This is a blatant lie. No guns were sold by ATF agents, they merely monitored legal sales and attempted to get indictments but failed. Every single one of those guns would still be out there had there been no F&F operation at all. Read my link to the Fortune investigation.

    Irony abounds when it comes to the Fast and Furious scandal. But the ultimate irony is this: Republicans who support the National Rifle Association and its attempts to weaken gun laws are lambasting ATF agents for not seizing enough weapons—ones that, in this case, prosecutors deemed to be legal.
    Last edited by iguanaman; 06-27-12 at 04:15 PM.

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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    This is a blatant lie. No guns were sold by ATF agents, they merely monitored legal sales and attempted to get indictments but failed. Every single one of those guns would still be out there had there been no F&F operation at all. Read my link to the Fortune investigation.
    That Fortune piece you cited blows the ****ing doors off Issa's bull**** investigation. ****ing Issa should be held in contempt and indicted for obstruction of justice.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

    Quote Originally Posted by Μολὼν λαβέ View Post
    Excellent questions for President Obama and Mr. Holder.

    Their answers are no, no, and exert executive privilege.
    You are obviously a foreigner, or you would know that the U.S, Constitution protects us ALL from unreasonable search and seizure.

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