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Thread: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/226]

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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Great argument there. Since Holder will not supply F&F documents there is no eveidence of ANYONE'S involvement, so no problem. No brain, no headache. 2,000 guns walking and 200+ killed with those guns is not in dispute, but to you that is just the way it is, no problem. Rumors of 2,000 "disenfranchised" voters in FL and you want DOJ dispatched quick fast and in a hurry, but that is not partisan politics, that is an EMERGENCY! LOL
    Great theory: how can the authorities know if you're doing anything wrong if we don't allow them to toss your home and office?
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Usually we require probable cause in order to justify a subpoena. You don't authorize a massive document search on the theory that the production of documents might give you after-the-fact justification for the search.
    There were TWO simple questions asked of DOJ about F&F; WHO authorized the guns walking and WHY? That should be EASY to do, BUT NO, Holder says that information is not available, which is INSANE. You do not run a multi million dollar program, involving hundreds of people, in many locations, in multiple states and with NOBODY in charge.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Great theory: how can the authorities know if you're doing anything wrong if we don't allow them to toss your home and office?
    2,000 missing guns and 200+ people killed with them IS probable cause for concern even in DC.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Karl, quoting mac View Post
    [...] I'm just quoting this so that it's clear that -- in your opinion -- use of executive privilege is only acceptable for national security purposes. [...]
    [...] the supreme court agrees with me...that's why they said Nixon had to turn over his taped conversations from the oval office. [...]
    They do? Would you care to quote the pertinent section of any Supreme Court decision that you think supports that claim?

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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    2,000 missing guns and 200+ people killed with them IS probable cause for concern even in DC.
    I see, so these 200 people were killed BECAUSE guns were available? Had these guns not been available these 200 people would be alive? You may want to run that messaging by the NRA before proceeding. They believe its people that kill, not the availability of guns.

    You Cons please sort this out and let us know which of these it is as you can't have it both ways.


    If we extract the real issue, 2000 missing guns, from the hysterics we see how see this really is.... Given standards set by the previous administrations and congresses, if we don't get excited about $6.6B in cash missing in Iraq or the $3.2T missing at the Pentagon (20% of our national debt, enough to fix every entitlement program running),

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU4GdHLUHwU

    who cares about 2000 guns that had an aggregate cost of a couple of hundred thousand. A bad idea, but hardly a crisis. then why are we getting on panties in a bunch about 2000 missing guns? Come on Cons, get a life or at least get real.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 06-25-12 at 10:28 AM.

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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    They do? Would you care to quote the pertinent section of any Supreme Court decision that you think supports that claim?
    http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/104284.pdf

    Not Supreme Court cases, but 2 DC Circuit cases have the current set of judicial precedent pretty well set( 1997 & 2004 ). Neither cases support the President's current use of Executive Privilege.

    On the point of Watergate, Nixon v. Sirica never went past the DC Circuit.
    In Nixon v. Sirica,10 the first of the Watergate cases, a panel of the District of
    Columbia Circuit rejected President Nixon’s claim that he was absolutely immune
    from all compulsory process whenever he asserted a formal claim of executive
    privilege, holding that while presidential conversations are “presumptively
    privileged,”11 the presumption could be overcome by an appropriate showing of
    public need by the branch seeking access to the conversations. In Sirica, “a uniquely
    powerful,” albeit undefined, showing was deemed to have been made by the Special
    Prosecutor that the tapes subpoenaed by the grand jury contained evidence necessary
    to carrying out the vital function of determining whether probable cause existed that
    those indicted had committed crimes
    .
    Last edited by Samhain; 06-25-12 at 10:23 AM.

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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    There were TWO simple questions asked of DOJ about F&F; WHO authorized the guns walking [...]
    The strategy of targeting high-level individuals, which was already ATF policy, would be implemented by Bill Newell, special agent in charge of ATF's Phoenix field division. In order to accomplish it, the office decided to use "gunwalking" as laid out in a January 2010 [local] briefing paper. This was said to be allowed under ATF regulations and given legal backing by U.S. Attorney for the District of Arizona Dennis K. Burke. It was additionally approved and funded by a Justice Department task force.[3] [this was an AZ-based task force -- Karl]

    ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Hell, I thought everybody knew that

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    and WHY?
    To catch the cartel leaders. Hell, I thought everybody knew that

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    That should be EASY to do, BUT NO, Holder says that information is not available, which is INSANE. You do not run a multi million dollar program, involving hundreds of people, in many locations, in multiple states and with NOBODY in charge.
    As you can see from the info I provided, your outrage is directed at an alternate reality. Do let us know how that works out . . . . .

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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    They do? Would you care to quote the pertinent section of any Supreme Court decision that you think supports that claim?
    United States v. Nixon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    "Less than three weeks later the Court issued its decision; the justices struggled to write an opinion that all eight could agree to. The stakes were so high, in that the tapes most likely contained evidence of criminal wrongdoing by the President and his men, that they wanted no dissent. All contributed to the opinion and Chief Justice Burger delivered the unanimous decision. After ruling that the Court could indeed resolve the matter and that Jaworski had proven a "sufficient likelihood that each of the tapes contains conversations relevant to the offenses charged in the indictment," the Court went to the main issue of executive privilege. The Court rejected Nixon's claim to "an absolute, unqualified Presidential privilege of immunity from judicial process under all circumstances." [US v. Nixon] Nixon resigned 15 days later."


    Executive privilege - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "The Supreme Court confirmed the legitimacy of this doctrine in United States v. Nixon, but only to the extent of confirming that there is a qualified privilege. Once invoked, a presumption of privilege is established, requiring the Prosecutor to make a "sufficient showing" that the "Presidential material" is "essential to the justice of the case."(418 U.S. at 713-14). Chief Justice Burger further stated that executive privilege would most effectively apply when the oversight of the executive would impair that branch's national security concerns."
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

    Quote Originally Posted by Samhain, addressing Karl View Post
    http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/104284.pdf

    Not Supreme Court cases, but 2 DC Circuit cases have the current set of judicial precedent pretty well set( 1997 & 2004 ). Neither cases support the President's current use of Executive Privilege.

    On the point of Watergate, Nixon v. Sirica never went past the DC Circuit.
    The basic tenet of debate is to address the topic. In the case of the polemic I was directing at mac, the topic was: "use of executive privilege is only acceptable for national security purposes", according to mac, who claimed SCOTUS concurrence.

    Your thoughts on mac's claim(s)?

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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    United States v. Nixon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "Less than three weeks later the Court issued its decision; the justices struggled to write an opinion that all eight could agree to. The stakes were so high, in that the tapes most likely contained evidence of criminal wrongdoing by the President and his men, that they wanted no dissent. All contributed to the opinion and Chief Justice Burger delivered the unanimous decision. After ruling that the Court could indeed resolve the matter and that Jaworski had proven a "sufficient likelihood that each of the tapes contains conversations relevant to the offenses charged in the indictment," the Court went to the main issue of executive privilege. The Court rejected Nixon's claim to "an absolute, unqualified Presidential privilege of immunity from judicial process under all circumstances." [US v. Nixon] Nixon resigned 15 days later."

    Executive privilege - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "The Supreme Court confirmed the legitimacy of this doctrine in United States v. Nixon, but only to the extent of confirming that there is a qualified privilege. Once invoked, a presumption of privilege is established, requiring the Prosecutor to make a "sufficient showing" that the "Presidential material" is "essential to the justice of the case."(418 U.S. at 713-14). Chief Justice Burger further stated that executive privilege would most effectively apply when the oversight of the executive would impair that branch's national security concerns."
    While I sincerely appreciate your efforts (many here don't even try), you have not shown that executive privilege is limited solely to national security issues. I agree that executive privilege is not absolute, but I never claimed it was.

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