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Thread: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/226]

  1. #321
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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

    Quote Originally Posted by jerry7 View Post
    Next year. After Obama's gone. No presidential pardons for Eric.
    It's unlikely that he could be convicted of anything, except by the right's kangaroo court which has already convicted him of being a Democrat. Anything he did was in an official capacity, and you can only convict on that if it's blatantly criminal.

    Besides, even if Obama loses in November, he's still President until January, and is likely to pardon Holder on his way out. If there's actually a crime that was committed.

    I don't think Obama's right on this, but let's get out of right-wing wet dream world, and focus on reality. He didn't commit a crime, he made a bad call on a sting operation that went South.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    It's unlikely that he could be convicted of anything, except by the right's kangaroo court which has already convicted him of being a Democrat. Anything he did was in an official capacity, and you can only convict on that if it's blatantly criminal.

    Besides, even if Obama loses in November, he's still President until January, and is likely to pardon Holder on his way out. If there's actually a crime that was committed.

    I don't think Obama's right on this, but let's get out of right-wing wet dream world, and focus on reality. He didn't commit a crime, he made a bad call on a sting operation that went South.
    How do you know anything what you just said, what proof do you have to back up anything you said. How about lying to congress. There is a cover up of wrong doing, otherwise why not hand over the documents?
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  3. #323
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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Why would I do that? Are they lawyers? Prosecutors?
    Apparently you asked the question... or were you being rhetorical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl
    What crime is the Terry family accusing Holder of?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    For committing what F and F crime?
    You need to read up on Contempt of Congress. According to Wiki:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki
    Contempt of Congress is the act of obstructing the work of the United States Congress or one of its committees.
    Apparently 16 months of stalling Congress and not complying with their subpoena's gets them a little

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl
    Why is Issa investigating this?
    Because there are some questions about Holder's two statements which were retracted. That no one has as yet been held accountable or responsible for F&F and the illegality of the walking 1,800 weapons into Mexico without Mexico's knowledge. That no one's been held accountable for Terry's death, nor the 400+ Mexican citizens who have been killed by these weapons. That the BATF and people in charge are still working for the Government, that a few have even been promoted and moved. That no one seemed to know what was going on when it was their job to know and that they've been seemingly non-compliant when Congress asks for information, emails, letters, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by Karl
    What crime is alleged to have taken place?
    I answered that in my prior post.


    Quote Originally Posted by Karl
    And by whom?
    If Holder would release the information Congress could find out. If they cannot get Holder to comply, they go after Holder. Now that Obama's in it... maybe they go after Obama. You know how this works... you go where the information leads you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Karl
    Oh, I agree completely on that one -- the GOP is having a major Viagra moment today, which simply proves that it is all a partisan witch hunt with no basis in rational thought, which also serves to denigrate Agent Terry's death while the right uses his family as sad political pawns. I doubt any instance can be found of politicians stooping so low as the Tea-influenced/wagged GOP has on this one since the McCarthy era (whom many current day conservatives champion, so that kinda figures).
    And thanks to stupid liberal idiots in Washington... the GOP will continue to have a field day. The gift just keeps on giving... it's hilarious to watch.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  4. #324
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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    But let's face it... getting Holder on a contempt charge after Obama has injected himself into the process with the executive privelege is just fuel for the GOP. Now they have the big fish to investigate in an election year. Much hay will be made ... prison time is nothing compared to the Fast & Furious debacle that continues to pay dividends to the Republicans.
    Much hay will be made in the court of public opinion, which is the one the GOP is really interested in winning anyway. They don't want an actual conviction, because it just means that Democrats will go after their AG when the time comes. Which it will, these things always come back around. It may take a few years, but they do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  5. #325
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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

    Quote Originally Posted by Born Free View Post
    How do you know anything what you just said, what proof do you have to back up anything you said. How about lying to congress. There is a cover up of wrong doing, otherwise why not hand over the documents?
    There's a cover up of something politically embarassing in an election year. Pay attention, there's one of those happening, and that is way more important to the GOP than anything they can do to Holder. They want to make hay and hope it's an issue that helps Mitt win, and that's it. That's what they care about.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  6. #326
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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

    Quote Originally Posted by Born Free View Post
    There is a cover up of wrong doing, otherwise why not hand over the documents?
    Seriously, you have to ask why the DOJ would not just hand over a ton of sensitive documents about the war against the cartel to a bunch of right wing political hacks? Do you have any idea what the cartel would do to get its hands on that kind of information? They would kill, kidnap, break in to federal buildings, whatever they need to do. In order to get access to that kind of information within the DOJ you get vetted and trained for years first and your name is never publicly released. They have extensive procedures to make sure everything is encrypted and transfers of the information are super secure, etc. You think they should just hand it over to some Republicans and their unpaid interns and whatnot? That would be insane. Hell, odds are that the Republicans would opt to just release whatever made Obama look bad to the press. They don't give a sh1t.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

    Quote Originally Posted by Born Free View Post
    That is exactly what they are trying figure out. One of our own was murdered by guns that our government supplied.
    Not in the real world, where the bullet was too damaged to determine that; I understand some have a theory based upon semantics and dueling newspaper articles (was that you in another thread?). However, even if it were true, the right wing argument is based upon the laughable premise that if F and F had never happened, the thugs that Agent Terry stumbled across would have been unarmed. Please

    Next, the right wing argument depends on ignoring similar gunwalking activity that occurred under the Bush administration, to the point -- if I have been correctly informed -- that they refuse to even call any Bush-administration witnesses to get to the bottom of how all this gunwalking began and how it progressed to the point where it was terminated under the Obama administration. So, in this race to find out who knew what and when (while no crime has been alleged, making those questions curious), the race does not start with the origins of the program, but with the origin of the Obama administration. Odd how that happened, eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Born Free View Post
    There is no answers to who, or why this happened, unless of course you can tell us. Please do.
    Certainly. Agent Terry was killed by armed thugs. That is the who. Because he stumbled upon them and they were up to no good. As I read it, he also fired first (albeit with non-lethal ammo; a bad policy IMHO). That is the why.

    Anything else I can help out with?


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    Last edited by Karl; 06-20-12 at 10:32 PM.

  8. #328
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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    You need to read up on Contempt of Congress. According to Wiki: [...]
    I asked for an F and F crime. Since you can't come up with one, you have to substitute something else.... a manufactured crime. You see, if the whole F and F investigation is a partisan sham (no basis in law), then the only crime Issa can come up with is refusal to submit to unreasonable demands (unreasonable subpoenas, as the initial ones have already proven to be).

    So I again ask -- what Holder crime prompted the F and F investigation?

  9. #329
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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Not in the real world, where the bullet was too damaged to determine that; I understand some have a theory based upon semantics and dueling newspaper articles (was that you in another thread?). However, even if it were true, the right wing argument is based upon the laughable premise that if F and F had never happened, the thugs that Agent Terry stumbled across would have been unarmed. Please
    That straw-man has no straw. The argument isn't that the man would have been unarmed...the argument is that the man may not have been as well armed. However, it is a certainty that there would have been fewer fire arms in the cartel's hands had the JD not sold them the weapons. That is an undeniable fact.


    Next, the right wing argument depends on ignoring similar gunwalking activity that occurred under the Bush administration, to the point -- if I have been correctly informed -- that they refuse to even call any Bush-administration witnesses to get to the bottom of how all this gunwalking began and how it progressed to the point where it was terminated under the Obama administration. So, in this race to find out who knew what and when (while no crime has been alleged, making those questions curious), the race does not start with the origins of the program, but with the origin of the Obama administration. Odd how that happened, eh?
    You are misinformed. The gun walking activity in the Bush administration ended with arrests. There is a reason that all of the agents involved are outraged, they were expecting a raid and confiscation of the weapons before the bad guys left and it did not come. They were caught with their pants down, and that was a direct result of the Obama administration.




    This administration is going to face calls for impeachment. Whether or not that comes may not matter. I don't see a President regaining office when the majority of Americans will want to see him impeached for what amounts to covering up a law enforcement error. And that is the real outrage...had the Obama administration been up front about the whole deal when it first happened, there would have been outrage that would have died out years ago. Now, it will hurt his chances for reelection. No doubt.
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  10. #330
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    Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    I asked for an F and F crime. Since you can't come up with one, you have to substitute something else.... a manufactured crime.
    So manufactured that the Congressional Committee voted Holder in contempt of Congress. Good to know 400 murders of Mexican citizens doesn't matter to you or Terry's murder here in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    You see, if the whole F and F investigation is a partisan sham (no basis in law), then the only crime Issa can come up with is refusal to submit to unreasonable demands (unreasonable subpoenas, as the initial ones have already proven to be).
    It's difficult to find the facts when the person who's been subpoenaed doesn't cooperate. That's what happens in a court of law too you see... if you refuse a subpoena you're held in contempt. No sham about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    So I again ask -- what Holder crime prompted the F and F investigation?
    Holders crime right now is obstruction of an investigation of a possible crime - ie., Contempt of Congress.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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