Teacher of the year is laid off.

Dittohead not! said:

Kids don't care what score they get on the tests. The results, then, are not reliable.

Click to expand...

Then they would average out and you would still receive a fair sample. In fact, it's better if they don't care since that will give a more honest result for the district. They either know it or they don't. Cramming for a federal test is not the purpose of the test.

I told a story in another thread which I believe requires repeating here. I know a young man who was a medicated ADHD B-C student from my state. His family moved to Florida nearly 15 years ago when he finished fifth grade because the parents thought the middle school he would be attending in his home state was too urban/violent for him. They get to Florida and they give him placement tests. He scored so well they scheduled him to test with the state to determine if he was a prodigy. They bumped him up only one grade level for fear of his age becoming a factor with his social growth. Imagine if the inverse were true, a student from that same school in Florida came up to his old local school district? He would have been 2+ years behind and tested for a mental or learning disability. So in one state an average kid is Doogie Howser, in the inverse he's Corky.

The glaring question then is why should my tax dollars go to fund that failing school? When they moved down there they were told the school was up to par and was fairly decent for the area. It was a nice rural town. Why do Americans continue to piss money away on education with no accountability? If a local school district from another state wants MY money they better be damn well willing to prove they aren't pumping out handicapped children. If they are not willing to do so they should not receive my money. I do believe that the testing presents a whole host of problems, but they are policy issues than can be addressed. For example, schools who do well should not be forced to give their students the exams annually. If they only give the exams every few years or more it won't become part of the curriculum. However, if your school is not producing a kid who can read properly perhaps the best thing for them is to test them using federal standards to enforce a basic competency that the schools are obviously not providing.

Again, these are FEDERAL funds. If the state doesn't like that a district received a federal cut in aide because they aren't educating their children properly the state can pick up the tab. Why should I?

j-mac said:

Ok fine...propose something that would be conclusive instead of just saying that won't work....

j-mac

Click to expand...

OK, here goes:

First, we dissolve all attendance boundaries and then even out the money that each school receives. Every school gets the same $$ per student, and every parent can choose their kids' school.

Next, form a parent/teacher committee to set standards for the individual school. Standards would include teacher performance, student performance, and behavior. Anyone who didn't like the standards or couldn't live up to them would have to find a school with lower standards.

Next, get rid of the state, county, district bureaucracies. The job of the state could be to credential teachers and accredit schools, which would be confined to making sure that they all teach the basics. For that, they would keep 1% of the money allocated to education. The other 99% would go to the school.

If the parents didn't like what the school was doing, how well it was performing, they would vote with their feet. Underperforming schools would close and/or open under new management just as neighborhood supermarkets that lose customers close and/or open under new management.

Teachers and administrators would be accountable to the parents, students to the parents, and parents to see to it that their child(ren) were able to meet the standards set by the school.

How's that?

Dittohead not! said:

OK, here goes:

First, we dissolve all attendance boundaries and then even out the money that each school receives. Every school gets the same $$ per student, and every parent can choose their kids' school.

Next, form a parent/teacher committee to set standards for the individual school. Standards would include teacher performance, student performance, and behavior. Anyone who didn't like the standards or couldn't live up to them would have to find a school with lower standards.

Next, get rid of the state, county, district bureaucracies. The job of the state could be to credential teachers and accredit schools, which would be confined to making sure that they all teach the basics. For that, they would keep 1% of the money allocated to education. The other 99% would go to the school.

If the parents didn't like what the school was doing, how well it was performing, they would vote with their feet. Underperforming schools would close and/or open under new management just as neighborhood supermarkets that lose customers close and/or open under new management.

Teachers and administrators would be accountable to the parents, students to the parents, and parents to see to it that their child(ren) were able to meet the standards set by the school.

How's that?

Click to expand...

Actually, that is a good outline you have there...How do you think current teachers would react to this type of model? Not very well I imagine.

j-mac

I found this funny (and I'm not taking sides here): Several posts back on this thread, a comment was made about a teacher giving semen-topped cookies to kids, and the first person to respond to it is named Comfort Food. :rofl:

Dittohead not! said:

OK, here goes:

First, we dissolve all attendance boundaries and then even out the money that each school receives. Every school gets the same $$ per student, and every parent can choose their kid's school.

.... Snip ...

How's that?

Click to expand...

You really can't zero out the cost per pupil. Costs aren't the same. Larger schools with more students will have less administrative overhead. Schools that are newer will have better energy efficiency. Rural schools will have increased transportation costs, etc.

I understand where you're going with this, but I think the premise itself is a deal breaker. Unless you can take time to figure out the overall cost of overhead it would result in a disparity among schools and there won't be a fair baseline.

Comfort Food said:

Have you thought this through? A classroom proctor still provides local contact. And you can't expect children to learn the same via internet based learning. You're basically advocating for destroying the quality of education for children in America because of some strange fascination with sexual molestation.

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I doubt it could get worse than it is. California is ranked around 47th in education and their teachers are paid the about highest in the country. Molestation arrests are happening at least once a month just in California. If wanting kids to be safe from creeps is a "strange fascination", the answer would be yes. Did I mention teachers have the right contractually to retire with pension even if they are convicted and jailed for child molestation? They should receive back any contributions they made to their pension, the rest stays in the fund if they are convicted of committing any crime on the job.

j-mac said:

That is because they were looking for a way to measure the teacher. There are other benchmark testing that holds students accountable, one off the top of my head would be the SAT. Why is it completely out of bounds to come up with a standardized method to measure teacher effectiveness?

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As noted by DHN, this is not the way to do it. As a measure, as conducted, the results are simply unrealiable and of no value.

Joe, I have told you all too many times, I am a parent. Raised two children successfully through primary school and now in collage. How dare you look down your nose at parents that are fed up with your entitlement attitude as a teacher, and your weak ass excuse making pushing off your failures onto parents, and students rather than excelling at your own damned job. What I would say is that you are parroting the BS union line that most in your position of striving for mediocrity brings, it is transparent, and pathetic. Let me know when you decide to stop blaming 15 year olds for your failures.

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I too am a parent. Raised a couple of children of my own. I have both the knowledge parents have, and inside knowledge. Telling you the truth is not looking down my nose. You really do not understand the problem, and that is simply the truth.

What exactly is your job Joe? Over the years I have heard so much Bull on that particular subject that I am not sure I would believe you should you post it honestly.

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My job is present accurate infomration, know my subject matter, be availble to answer questions, provide feedback, and encourage students to try. But as I tell them, it takes both of us to have optimum results. Knowledge does not leap from one head to another. The student must try to learn.

Too vague. Set some real parameters. All you are giving here is wishy washy mush that can't be nailed down...

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J, that's silly. The list is specific. This is when you look like you either didn't read or understand what was written.

And the coach wouldn't last long in the boxing world if that coach was constantly blaming everyone else for his boxers losses.

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Nor would the boxer.

Yeah, well good luck with that if you continue to foster an adversarial relationship.

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It's not me doing j. You are. I'm saying it takes all of us, so we have to work together. You're not doing that.

Nonsense, but you have to start somewhere. And by the sound of the silliness coming from you, parents have picked the correct place to start.

j-mac

Click to expand...

I will never understand why you think the people who know the most should not be part of the solution. I wish you could see how illogical you're being.

Prof. Peabody said:

Did I mention teachers have the right contractually to retire with pension even if they are convicted and jailed for child molestation? They should receive back any contributions they made to their pension, the rest stays in the fund if they are convicted of committing any crime on the job.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't be surprised. I believe CalPERS is a state agency so they should be able to nip that in the bud. Military and most police officers lose their pension for stuff like that. Teachers should as well.

Boo Radley said:

As noted by DHN, this is not the way to do it. As a measure, as conducted, the results are simply unrealiable and of no value.



I too am a parent. Raised a couple of children of my own. I have both the knowledge parents have, and inside knowledge. Telling you the truth is not looking down my nose. You really do not understand the problem, and that is simply the truth.



My job is present accurate infomration, know my subject matter, be availble to answer questions, provide feedback, and encourage students to try. But as I tell them, it takes both of us to have optimum results. Knowledge does not leap from one head to another. The student must try to learn.




J, that's silly. The list is specific. This is when you look like you either didn't read or understand what was written.



Nor would the boxer.




It's not me doing j. You are. I'm saying it takes all of us, so we have to work together. You're not doing that.



I will never understand why you think the people who know the most should not be part of the solution. I wish you could see how illogical you're being.

Click to expand...

I know this, between this story, and the one in Chicago where teachers are demanding more pay, and you couple that with piss poor results that the public education system is putting out, I think you teachers are running as fast as you can headlong into a firestorm...Like I said earlier, people are fed up, and pissed off with teacher demands in light of the failed system you and your comrades have produced.

j-mac

j-mac said:

Actually, that is a good outline you have there...How do you think current teachers would react to this type of model? Not very well I imagine.

j-mac

Click to expand...

Actually, I think most of them would like the idea of holding students and parents accountable, along with themselves.
and the competition between schools would be a good thing. It works for every other business, after all, and most teachers use competition to get kids to perform.

and I know they would love the idea of eliminating all of the layers of bureaucracy.

Dittohead not! said:

Actually, I think most of them would like the idea of holding students and parents accountable, along with themselves.
and the competition between schools would be a good thing. It works for every other business, after all, and most teachers use competition to get kids to perform.

and I know they would love the idea of eliminating all of the layers of bureaucracy.

Click to expand...

Since teachers unions helped create this bureaucracy that you say rank and file teachers are fed up with what leads you to believe that they want this gone? Heck, that in most cases saves their jobs. Even when they are monumental screw ups.

j-mac

Prof. Peabody said:

I doubt it could get worse than it is. California is ranked around 47th in education and their teachers are paid the about highest in the country. Molestation arrests are happening at least once a month just in California. If wanting kids to be safe from creeps is a "strange fascination", the answer would be yes. Did I mention teachers have the right contractually to retire with pension even if they are convicted and jailed for child molestation? They should receive back any contributions they made to their pension, the rest stays in the fund if they are convicted of committing any crime on the job.

Click to expand...

For once, you have it right, the numbers are exaggerated, perhaps, but I have to agree that teachers who molest kids should lose their pensions.


They won't need them in prison anyway.

If it's any consolation, any teacher who hasn't been teaching for many years won't get much of a pension.

Josie said:

Like x 1,000.
.........................

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You're a teacher and pretty quiet. Do you think you have it made in the shade or what? Do you get paid too much for the little work that you do?

Dittohead not! said:

So, go back to school, get a teaching credential, and you can have it "made" as well.

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I have already identified I would not want to teach in a prior post which you may have missed. I do not envy teachers but I also do not whine that they work so hard while other work so much less. In fact, the hours, the effort, the output is the same no matter where one works in America - at least to those who work hard. Yet teachers benefits are so much more, yet those who whine about teachers is also so much more.

Dittohead not! said:

It would not be a solution to anything, but it would be an education for Ockham.

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I've had quite enough of an education from the public school system, then the Army, and then College. I know enough to differentiate **** from shineola, learned enough how not to step in the ****, and how to smell the **** when it's presented to me. By pointing out teachers do nothing more than anyone else; perhaps it's you who needs more of an education.

Dittohead not! said:

OK, here goes:

First, we dissolve all attendance boundaries and then even out the money that each school receives. Every school gets the same $$ per student, and every parent can choose their kids' school.

Next, form a parent/teacher committee to set standards for the individual school. Standards would include teacher performance, student performance, and behavior. Anyone who didn't like the standards or couldn't live up to them would have to find a school with lower standards.

Next, get rid of the state, county, district bureaucracies. The job of the state could be to credential teachers and accredit schools, which would be confined to making sure that they all teach the basics. For that, they would keep 1% of the money allocated to education. The other 99% would go to the school.

If the parents didn't like what the school was doing, how well it was performing, they would vote with their feet. Underperforming schools would close and/or open under new management just as neighborhood supermarkets that lose customers close and/or open under new management.

Teachers and administrators would be accountable to the parents, students to the parents, and parents to see to it that their child(ren) were able to meet the standards set by the school.

How's that?

Click to expand...

j-mac said:

Actually, that is a good outline you have there...How do you think current teachers would react to this type of model? Not very well I imagine.

j-mac

Click to expand...

j-mac said:

Since teachers unions helped create this bureaucracy that you say rank and file teachers are fed up with what leads you to believe that they want this gone? Heck, that in most cases saves their jobs. Even when they are monumental screw ups.

j-mac

Click to expand...

I too think Ditto has a good list - what's missing though is the buy in from the unions to allow such a thing to happen. The unions actually would be the biggest blockade to such a thing, and then the government at all levels would be the next. This would mean the system at large would have to put the welfare and education of children above themselves... both unions and government at all levels. I don't see that happening any time soon, sadly.

Dittohead not! said:

For once, you have it right, the numbers are exaggerated, perhaps, but I have to agree that teachers who molest kids should lose their pensions.


They won't need them in prison anyway.

If it's any consolation, any teacher who hasn't been teaching for many years won't get much of a pension.

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Unfortunately it will take decades for the "good old days" of defined benefit pension liabilities of those "super privileged" retirees to be lifted from the state/local budgets, in the mean time, they keep getting COLA raises on their already too generous pensions. The days of unending raises in salary and benefit increases for gov't employees may be over. Perhaps they will come to allow raises (and retention) to be based on performance, like MOST private company's have come to do.

Ockham said:

I too think Ditto has a good list - what's missing though is the buy in from the unions to allow such a thing to happen. The unions actually would be the biggest blockade to such a thing, and then the government at all levels would be the next. This would mean the system at large would have to put the welfare and education of children above themselves... both unions and government at all levels. I don't see that happening any time soon, sadly.

Click to expand...

The educational reform suggestions are mostly OK, except for the idea that taxation/representation are being removed to an UPWARD level of gov't. The removal of local school districts is a bad plan, IMHO. Instead of 1,000 local school districts, each with ideas for improvement, a local tax base and parental involvement, you end up with ONE statewide school board that nobody can control. Another falacy is that equal per pupil funding is "fair", as it MUST be set to allow the most expensive region in the state (San Francisco?) to survive, thus WASTING millions in rural lower cost areas, and raising taxation through the roof as well. To keep costs down, and local control up, was the reason for local school districts in the first place. If school funding is directly tied to the local tax base, then they have CONTROL over expenses and can make local decisions concerning school budget matters. Ending most organized sports in K-12 schools would save millions as well. Here in Texas, I would bet that the schools spend more on band, cheerleader and sports related expenses than they do on text books. Some high schools have stadiums, tracks, tennis courts, pools and ball fields that rival many colleges, look up Lake Travis high school, near Austin, TX (I realize that they get outside fundng as well, but that place looks like a college campus). Link: Lake Travis High School - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia There are MANY more links for this "super school" if you care to look them up.

Good to know its all about the kids.

Middleground said:

You're a teacher and pretty quiet. Do you think you have it made in the shade or what? Do you get paid too much for the little work that you do?

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I have a specialized degree, so I make more than my coworkers who have been teaching just as long as I have. I work my ass off all year long taking on extra committee jobs, working weekends, paying for many materials from my own pocket, etc. Now, I believe I'm paid well for what I do. I don't think I should be paid any more.

However, if I did enough to just scoot by, never worked weekends, gossiped in the lounge instead of working, slacked off on committee work ... I'd STILL be paid the same salary because of my degree. That's messed up.

j-mac said:

It's always defense with you libs. One of the few Constitutional duties that government has, and you always want to eviscerate it, especially when you consider that entitlements make defense look like small potato's....



j-mac

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The Constitution only specifies defense. It says nothing about offensive spending. We can no longer afford to spend 7 times what the next biggest spender spends.

I've no problem with defense spending twice what the next biggest spender spends, like we used to until Reagan exploded our national debt with excessive military spending.

But, people will figure that out eventually when they realize we have a debt problem.

Josie said:

I have a specialized degree, so I make more than my coworkers who have been teaching just as long as I have. I work my ass off all year long taking on extra committee jobs, working weekends, paying for many materials from my own pocket, etc. Now, I believe I'm paid well for what I do. I don't think I should be paid any more.

However, if I did enough to just scoot by, never worked weekends, gossiped in the lounge instead of working, slacked off on committee work ... I'd STILL be paid the same salary because of my degree. That's messed up.

Click to expand...

Truth from the inside.

Ockham said:

I too think Ditto has a good list - what's missing though is the buy in from the unions to allow such a thing to happen. The unions actually would be the biggest blockade to such a thing, and then the government at all levels would be the next. This would mean the system at large would have to put the welfare and education of children above themselves... both unions and government at all levels. I don't see that happening any time soon, sadly.

Click to expand...

Why would unions block a system in which their members would get more pay and less hassle from administration, government, and bureaucrats? That makes less sense than you telling us how easy teaching is, and that you wouldn't want such an easy and well paid job for yourself.

and, if the schools are so bad, how is it you got such a good education there?

ttwtt78640 said:

The educational reform suggestions are mostly OK, except for the idea that taxation/representation are being removed to an UPWARD level of gov't. The removal of local school districts is a bad plan, IMHO. Instead of 1,000 local school districts, each with ideas for improvement, a local tax base and parental involvement, you end up with ONE statewide school board that nobody can control. Another falacy is that equal per pupil funding is "fair", as it MUST be set to allow the most expensive region in the state (San Francisco?) to survive, thus WASTING millions in rural lower cost areas, and raising taxation through the roof as well. To keep costs down, and local control up, was the reason for local school districts in the first place. If school funding is directly tied to the local tax base, then they have CONTROL over expenses and can make local decisions concerning school budget matters. Ending most organized sports in K-12 schools would save millions as well. Here in Texas, I would bet that the schools spend more on band, cheerleader and sports related expenses than they do on text books. Some high schools have stadiums, tracks, tennis courts, pools and ball fields that rival many colleges, look up Lake Travis high school, near Austin, TX (I realize that they get outside fundng as well, but that place looks like a college campus). Link: Lake Travis High School - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia There are MANY more links for this "super school" if you care to look them up.

Click to expand...

It's interesting that you would bring up California. Here, schools are already funded by the state. This is due to a property tax reduction initiative that was passed back in the '70s that made it necessary to fund schools from other taxes. We're still a long way from the system I described, which would allow for local communities to control their own schools, rather than the state doing so as is currently the case.

I'm not that familiar with Texas. I wonder, along with the schools being funded locally, are they really run locally, or does the State Board of Education dictate what must be taught, what textbooks to use, and how to evaluate student progress?

Dittohead not! said:

It's interesting that you would bring up California. Here, schools are already funded by the state. This is due to a property tax reduction initiative that was passed back in the '70s that made it necessary to fund schools from other taxes. We're still a long way from the system I described, which would allow for local communities to control their own schools, rather than the state doing so as is currently the case.

I'm not that familiar with Texas. I wonder, along with the schools being funded locally, are they really run locally, or does the State Board of Education dictate what must be taught, what textbooks to use, and how to evaluate student progress?

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I will say this, most of the efforts I see from conservatives (Dutch system and the Stossel video) actually argue form central standards that all schools adhere to, and that government fund all of the schools, virtually eliminating private. Just something I find odd, especially in comparison with their opposition to single payer HC.

Dittohead not! said:

[h=1]Sacramento ‘Teacher of the Year’ laid off[/h]
Work hard, excel at what you do, contribute to society, and get laid off anyway.
Ain't it great?

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No, in fact, it sucks. Quality teachers are critical.

Evidence #1,498,875 why we need to get rid of idiotic union-driven seniority rules, and replace them with merit rankings. Some crappy teacher has this ones' job because she was born 3 years earlier.