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Teacher of the year is laid off.

Crosscheck said:
Maybe you should reconsider returning to school and becoming a teacher. If you care about the following generations.
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Maybe you missed the part where I said I was aware of my own limitations as far as teaching is concerned. Or did you only chose to read those parts of the posting that enraged you?

Of course there are bad apples and I bet every occupation here has bad apples.
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The difference is that in most professions it doesn't take months of paid leave, and $100K in lawyers fees to get those bad apples out of the system.

But too often people such as you use such a broad brush to paint teachers.
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It wouldn't be such a 'broad brush' situation if so many teachers, and blanket defenders didn't broadly say that it's all the parents, and students fault, that they fail as teachers.

My daughter is a teacher and I know for a fact she puts in far more hours than you paint.
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Not a painter. But leave it to libs to denigrate honest work.

Is her job as hard as a bucker on a logging crew? No, and I doubt if your job is hard as one on a logging crew. But there are some tough jobs a teacher does that the logger doesn't have to deal with.
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Not saying that. And I have teachers in my family tree as well.

She has busted her ass to get her students to improve their education and just two months ago stepped in to rescue one young boy from an abusive and neglected living arrangement that nobody around him stood up.
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Admirable. Maybe she is one of the 'good ones'. No one said that they didn't exist.

I think a problem with our young in education does come a lot from the home. Americans don't seem to value educating the mind as much as other cultures.
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On that we probably have more in agreement than disagreement. In raising our children, my wife and I were intimately involved with their education, but we did see a majority, that was shall we say less committed than we were.

But we also saw many teachers that were less than committed also.

Look on any Saturday and you will see sports fields loaded with soccer, baseball, football, and basketball youth association games. Ever see a math/science club for youth gathering on a Saturday here in America? No, of course not.
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Well, sports, music, and yes even clubs like math/science are proven to form a more well rounded student. So, my suggestion to you is that if you don't have that within your education community then be proactive and start one yourself. You can get support from the national org.

Check out the names of your physicians at your local clinic and see how many were raised here in our country.
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That has more do with the cost of obtaining an MD in this country, combined with cost of malpractice insurance for entry level MD's, and payment for services not covering the cost of debt. Also, should Obamacare survive it will get worse. But that is off topic, and suitable for another thread.


j-mac
 
Middleground said:
When someone retires after paying into a pension plan all of their working life, what the **** is wrong with that???

PS. Construction workers, plumbers and electricians make a ton more than our teachers. At least here in Canada.
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They did here, too, until the government and the banks screwed over the housing market and plunged the country into a depression.
 
Middleground said:
I am not a teacher. I just have a lot more common sense then you do.
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So you think...:roll:


I also know some teachers and realize how hard they work.
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As do I. Read the reply to Crosscheck.

I also remember, since I was a student for all of my formative years.
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Well, congratulations! So were we all. Please reference the commencement speech given by David McCullough 'You are not special' It may help you.

Are you that naive to think that teachers do not do extra curricular activities? Do you not think they have any prep work? Do you not think they have to grade papers and tests? Are you that naive to think that by 3:00 their day is done????
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Again, get that cryin' towel out dude....You think teachers are the only people that take work home? I got news for you, in today's work world taking work home to do on YOUR TIME is pretty commonplace.


You know little to nothing about what you're bitching about.
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Don't confuse your bravado with my knowledge.

Wow, really? Got numbers to back that up or is this something that you just pulled out of your ass?
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To think that only some survey on the opinion that teachers in some cases get into the profession for the wrong reasons is a foolish question to ask me. Not to mention that even if you were to have someone study the question, it would be doubtful that the study would get truthful answers.

j-mac
 
Middleground said:
I am not a teacher. I just have a lot more common sense then you do. I also know some teachers and realize how hard they work. I also remember, since I was a student for all of my formative years. Are you that naive to think that teachers do not do extra curricular activities? Do you not think they have any prep work? Do you not think they have to grade papers and tests? Are you that naive to think that by 3:00 their day is done???? You know little to nothing about what you're bitching about.
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Your grade level elementary ed teachers put in more work than other fields, but even then it is subjective. For example, why does the elementary school gym teacher make as much as a 3rd grade instructional teacher? This teacher barely works 5.5 - 6 hours a day. Over a 180 day schedule this equates to about 1000 hours. Whereas the typical American who works a 270 day schedule and roughly 7.5-8 hours a day would work 2000+ hours. So in essence these employees are only working half of what the typical full time American works, yet they receive lavish benefits. The same can go for the arts teachers as well.

The problem people have with teacher compensation is not that the good teachers who put in a lot of time and effort are paid too much money, it is that many teachers simply don't and get compensated regardless. This has an effect on the culture of the schools as well as the individual teachers themselves. Over time some teachers start off great, but once tenured they can start to slack off as they see other teachers doing less and having no bearing on their jobs. It is basic human nature. Therefore, it makes sense to pay teachers accordingly for the quality and value of their work. Paying teachers the same regardless of their position and work performed makes no sense. There should be accountability and with accountability would come better performance.

Imagine if you were hired at a corporation and they told you that you would make $50k a year regardless of the work you did. You would never get fired and you would never get promoted or receive a pay increase above your peers. How would that effect you? Every individual would say "I'd do my best regardless because that's the type of person I am." But imagine now that this corporation hires 1,000 employees of all different positions, backgrounds and home situations. Do you really believe that everyone would be hard working and fully earn their paychecks?

Other public jobs like police, fire, etc have positions that can be aspired to. You can come in as a patrolman, work your way up to a sargeant, lieutenant, etc. In teaching there is no such thing. And the notion of staggering income based on certain criteria is fought off by unions and the public teaching sector as a whole. It makes no sense. The largest bulk of our property taxes goes to education and yet the system is set up in such a way that there is zero accountability. Who does this benefit? The answer is not the students, not the parents, not the taxpayers and not our country. This is a public sector job, the answer should be one of those variables. If it is not, then they are doing something wrong.
 
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Crosscheck; Check out the names of your physicians at your local clinic and see how many were raised here in our country.[/QUOTE said:
j-mac said:
That has more do with the cost of obtaining an MD in this country, combined with cost of malpractice insurance for entry level MD's, and payment for services not covering the cost of debt. Also, should Obamacare survive it will get worse. But that is off topic, and suitable for another thread.
j-mac
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They come here to get that education and pay even more than natives do for that education and they will pay the same malpractice insurance. Obamacare has nothing to do with this, this trend started a long time ago.

We seem not to be that education driven as many other parts of the country. We can't compete with them any longer. In many Asian-Indian homes the goal of success is seen through hard work and here in many homes the goal of success is obtained by winning the super lottery.
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Middleground said:
When someone retires after paying into a pension plan all of their working life, what the **** is wrong with that???
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I'm not claiming there's anything wrong with it. I'm saying the things you outlined are common enough - what's not common is the big pension they get, summers off they get, and tenure they get. The rest of us who work like dogs who don't get all those perks also put in prep time, over time, work late, work weekends, do extra's and pay out of our pockets.

Teachers have it freakin' made.
 
Middleground said:
When someone retires after paying into a pension plan all of their working life, what the **** is wrong with that???

PS. Construction workers, plumbers and electricians make a ton more than our teachers. At least here in Canada.
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That's fine if they keep only the money they put in and invested into their pensions. But when they kick in and ask tax payers to contribute to their pensions is when I have a problem. They can open a 403B or and IRA like the rest of us. The problem taxpayers have with teacher's pensions isn't that they take more than they contribute.
 
Ockham said:
I'm not claiming there's anything wrong with it. I'm saying the things you outlined are common enough - what's not common is the big pension they get, summers off they get, and tenure they get. The rest of us who work like dogs who don't get all those perks also put in prep time, over time, work late, work weekends, do extra's and pay out of our pockets.

Teachers have it freakin' made.
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So, go back to school, get a teaching credential, and you can have it "made" as well.
 
nota bene said:
So unfair to accuse teachers of shirking; most of them are among the most hard-working and dedicated professionals I know. And they take their work home with them, unlike those lucky enough to leave it at the office at closing time. None of my kids' teachers ever left at 3 sharp.
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In California they're working on the kids......sexually. One was even feeding the kids semen topped cookies.

L.A. school reeling from arrest of second teacher

Workin hard!
 
Yet what is not a rare occurrence is kids dropping out high school. What is not a rare occurrence, is kids graduating without a sufficient reading level.
 
Comfort Food said:
How is this relevant? Clearly you understand this is a rare circumstance out of the millions of teachers in the US.
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Ex-California teacher who moved in with student arrested on 1998 molestation charge

Fmr. OC Teacher Arrested for Molestation, Child Porn

Clovis teacher arrested in student molest case

Ramona High School teacher's aide arrested for molestation

La Mirada Substitute Teacher Arrested for Molestation

Reedley Man is Arrested for Allegedly Molesting a Student

These are just from 2012.......so far looking. Once a month isn't a rare occurrence. Lay them all off and use internet based learning with a classroom proctor. The top 20% can go to a charter school with live teachers.
 
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j-mac said:
Why is it that the students have no stake? Could it be the misguided practice of moving problem kids along through the grade system regardless of whether or not they have mastered the skill supposedly taught?

You teachers helped create this monster, then want to sit back and not take ANY responsibility at all, but rather blame parents, blame even the minor student, but when it comes to the teachers responsibility I guess the answer is like the old sit com, Chico and the man, 'It's not my job, man!'

Well it damned well IS your job, and you shirk your duties, and bitch and moan that $50K isn't enough money, and 10 weeks in the summer, with every conceivable holiday, along with at least 2 teacher 'in service' days per month, and to work at 7, GONE at 3 sharp is too much to ask in teaching the kids, and it's their fault?

What a joke.

People are fed the hell up with you lib public sector, pampered crybabies, and they aren't going to take much more of it I tell ya.

j-mac
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No, it's because the law, NCLB, says they have no stake. The results mean nothing to them.

J, you have no real understanding of the problem. Like too many, you have listen to the uninformed and reach a mistaken conclusion. You don't really know what my job is, or how to measure my effectiveness. But that doesn't stop you running off on wild rants.

Now, the fact is teachers should be held responsibile. But you have to hold them responsibile for what they are responsible for. That is knowing their subject matter, having a clear plan to present that amterial, being open to answering questions, giving feedback, and trying to reach as many as they can. A Boxer has a coach, but when the boxer steps into the ring, the boxer is on his own. Like a boxer and a coach, the relationship between educator and student requires both.

Now, as we're dealing a lot with children, parents also play a role, as does the community, and our society. Somehow some of you have reduced a mult-prolbem issue down to one and only one element. Logically, this is silly.
 
Prof. Peabody said:
Ex-California teacher who moved in with student arrested on 1998 molestation charge

Fmr. OC Teacher Arrested for Molestation, Child Porn

Clovis teacher arrested in student molest case

Ramona High School teacher's aide arrested for molestation

La Mirada Substitute Teacher Arrested for Molestation

Reedley Man is Arrested for Allegedly Molesting a Student

These are just from 2012.......so far looking. Once a month isn't a rare occurrence. Lay them all off and use internet based learning with a classroom proctor. The top 20% can go to a charter school with live teachers.
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Have you thought this through? A classroom proctor still provides local contact. And you can't expect children to learn the same via internet based learning. You're basically advocating for destroying the quality of education for children in America because of some strange fascination with sexual molestation. Do you have a bad history with this that is tainting your judgement?
 
Boo Radley said:
No, it's because the law, NCLB, says they have no stake. The results mean nothing to them.

J, you have no real understanding of the problem. Like too many, you have listen to the uninformed and reach a mistaken conclusion. You don't really know what my job is, or how to measure my effectiveness. But that doesn't stop you running off on wild rants.

Now, the fact is teachers should be held responsibile. But you have to hold them responsibile for what they are responsible for. That is knowing their subject matter, having a clear plan to present that amterial, being open to answering questions, giving feedback, and trying to reach as many as they can. A Boxer has a coach, but when the boxer steps into the ring, the boxer is on his own. Like a boxer and a coach, the relationship between educator and student requires both.

Now, as we're dealing a lot with children, parents also play a role, as does the community, and our society. Somehow some of you have reduced a mult-prolbem issue down to one and only one element. Logically, this is silly.
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You mention MANY things that are beyond the control of the teachers, yet they are beyond the control of the TAXPAYERS too. What the taxpayer CAN control is the amount spent on the public eduction SYSTEM, which has decided to remove teachers to cut costs. The amount spent PER PUPIL has increased DRASTICALLY with no improvement in student performance; at some point, like NOW, many are saying enough, is enough, and demanding something be done. If you can point to a BETTER solution, that preserves funding for teachers, improves education for students and still costs no more, then PLEASE let us hear it. To assert that public educaton funding PER STUDENT has not gotten WAY out of control, ignores reality.
 
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Parents are still ultimately to blame.

Public education is one of the few examples where the private sector dropped the ball the public sector is being forced to pick up.

My generation should've never become parents. It's sad to think that if I had a kid right out of high school, they'd be entering high school now. I would pity that child. He or she would be surrounded by children who are crippled by their upbringings.

Money is not the answer to education. It never was. Attitude is.
 
Prof. Peabody said:
Ex-California teacher who moved in with student arrested on 1998 molestation charge

Fmr. OC Teacher Arrested for Molestation, Child Porn

Clovis teacher arrested in student molest case

Ramona High School teacher's aide arrested for molestation

La Mirada Substitute Teacher Arrested for Molestation

Reedley Man is Arrested for Allegedly Molesting a Student

These are just from 2012.......so far looking. Once a month isn't a rare occurrence. Lay them all off and use internet based learning with a classroom proctor. The top 20% can go to a charter school with live teachers.
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Should we also get rid of physicians, preachers, priests, dentists,coaches, boy scout leaders, and foster parents? I think the only occupation that is safe is sheephearding but then that opens up another thread.
 
Boo Radley said:
No, it's because the law, NCLB, says they have no stake. The results mean nothing to them.
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That is because they were looking for a way to measure the teacher. There are other benchmark testing that holds students accountable, one off the top of my head would be the SAT. Why is it completely out of bounds to come up with a standardized method to measure teacher effectiveness?

J, you have no real understanding of the problem. Like too many, you have listen to the uninformed and reach a mistaken conclusion.
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Joe, I have told you all too many times, I am a parent. Raised two children successfully through primary school and now in collage. How dare you look down your nose at parents that are fed up with your entitlement attitude as a teacher, and your weak ass excuse making pushing off your failures onto parents, and students rather than excelling at your own damned job. What I would say is that you are parroting the BS union line that most in your position of striving for mediocrity brings, it is transparent, and pathetic. Let me know when you decide to stop blaming 15 year olds for your failures.

You don't really know what my job is, or how to measure my effectiveness. But that doesn't stop you running off on wild rants.
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What exactly is your job Joe? Over the years I have heard so much Bull on that particular subject that I am not sure I would believe you should you post it honestly.

Now, the fact is teachers should be held responsibile. But you have to hold them responsibile for what they are responsible for. That is knowing their subject matter, having a clear plan to present that amterial, being open to answering questions, giving feedback, and trying to reach as many as they can.
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Too vague. Set some real parameters. All you are giving here is wishy washy mush that can't be nailed down...

A Boxer has a coach, but when the boxer steps into the ring, the boxer is on his own. Like a boxer and a coach, the relationship between educator and student requires both.
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And the coach wouldn't last long in the boxing world if that coach was constantly blaming everyone else for his boxers losses.

Now, as we're dealing a lot with children, parents also play a role, as does the community, and our society.
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Yeah, well good luck with that if you continue to foster an adversarial relationship.

Somehow some of you have reduced a mult-prolbem issue down to one and only one element. Logically, this is silly.
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Nonsense, but you have to start somewhere. And by the sound of the silliness coming from you, parents have picked the correct place to start.

j-mac
 
j-mac said:
That is because they were looking for a way to measure the teacher. There are other benchmark testing that holds students accountable, one off the top of my head would be the SAT. Why is it completely out of bounds to come up with a standardized method to measure teacher effectiveness?
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It is not out of bounds at all. Teachers, parents, administrators, and students need to be held accountable.

The standardized tests that are the response to NCLB are not the way to do it.

Kids don't care what score they get on the tests. The results, then, are not reliable.
 
Gipper said:
Parents are still ultimately to blame.

Public education is one of the few examples where the private sector dropped the ball the public sector is being forced to pick up.

My generation should've never become parents. It's sad to think that if I had a kid right out of high school, they'd be entering high school now. I would pity that child. He or she would be surrounded by children who are crippled by their upbringings.

Money is not the answer to education. It never was. Attitude is.
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Like x 1,000.
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Dittohead not! said:
It is not out of bounds at all. Teachers, parents, administrators, and students need to be held accountable.

The standardized tests that are the response to NCLB are not the way to do it.

Kids don't care what score they get on the tests. The results, then, are not reliable.
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Ok fine...propose something that would be conclusive instead of just saying that won't work....

j-mac
 
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