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Thread: Teacher of the year is laid off.

  1. #321
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    Re: Teacher of the year is laid off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    First, to my point that you ignored before, during this election cycle, Mr 1% has received almost 3 times as much campaign money from Wall Street, and more than twice as much from the entire financial sector.
    Candidates Know Where the Money Is - Room for Debate - NYTimes.com

    Here's how much business overspent unions in the 2010 election:
    I like how you just counted direct donations to campaigns. And Parties. Given that that is typically how businesses donate (Unions tend more towards the "public awareness campaigns" and "GOTV" efforts) it would give you a nicely tilted sample.

    Hell, AFSCME alone spent nearly as much as you are giving credit to the entire public union movement.

    Last edited by cpwill; 06-21-12 at 03:02 AM.

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    Re: Teacher of the year is laid off.

    CP, I'm too tired to try and work my way through those silly breaks. There is little use for standardized test scores as it comes to evaluating teachers. Sorry.

    And yes, in the context that I presented it, law protecting the innocent are comparable with union protection, though only in the way I presented it. Context always matters.

    As for student achievement, you clearly fail to understand what I'm saying, as repeatedly misrepresent it (could be because you don't read things in their entirity, but break them down so as to lose meaning?). I argue there are too many factors to say that test scores among students on standardized test show the skill of the teacher.

    As for firing teachers, you skipped and divert completely away form the point. It is mind boggling how you do that. Good teachers get fired in the private sector as well. They get fired (good teachers) where there are not unions involved.

    Now read it all together, see there is only a few points. Try to grasp it all before you respond.


    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  3. #323
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    Re: Teacher of the year is laid off.

    Get rid of unions and their greed and start focusing on our children's education here in CA is the answer. Unions will never come up with anything worth a damn to evaluate the teachers, but you can be sure our parents will.
    Caitlyn Strong...

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    Re: Teacher of the year is laid off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesome! View Post
    Unions will never come up with anything worth a damn to evaluate the teachers, but you can be sure our parents will.
    Why would Unions want to come up with honest teacher evaluations? That would allow them to actually be individualy evaluated, decreasing the power of the union.

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    Re: Teacher of the year is laid off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    CP, I'm too tired to try and work my way through those silly breaks. There is little use for standardized test scores as it comes to evaluating teachers. Sorry.
    still seeking to divert into this only and one point?

    And yes, in the context that I presented it, law protecting the innocent are comparable with union protection, though only in the way I presented it.
    And doesn't carry over for the reasons I mentioned. The priority for an educational system is the students, not the employees.

    As for student achievement, you clearly fail to understand what I'm saying, as repeatedly misrepresent it (could be because you don't read things in their entirity, but break them down so as to lose meaning?). I argue there are too many factors to say that test scores among students on standardized test show the skill of the teacher.
    for individuals absolutely; which is why you use large data sets to average filter out outliers in order to allow you to determine trends.

    As for firing teachers, you skipped and divert completely away form the point. It is mind boggling how you do that. Good teachers get fired in the private sector as well. They get fired (good teachers) where there are not unions involved.
    I didn't skip over it at all. In fact, I specifically stated in response to your question:

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo
    So where do you want the protection? Risk keeping a few bad apples to protect the good, or sacrifice some good to amke sure get the bad faster? Both numbers are likely small. And good and bad is likely not as clear as you think.
    that:

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    The priority is that students receive quality teachers. Ergo, the system should be designed to weight in favor of removing poor teachers, with the acknowledgement and acceptance that sometimes this means good teachers will fall through the cracks

    Perhaps you can defend a system which is set up to protect bad and mediocre teachers as superior? What prioritization does that flow from?

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    Re: Teacher of the year is laid off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Which one is that?
    Ten states have not outlawed unions. Zero have. Unions have federal and constitutional protections. What you may be thinking is that in a handful of states collective bargaining for public employees is not required and in some it was never made legal. The exception of course being Wisconsin which was the first to make it legal and then the first to retract it. Back in the day collective bargaining for public employees was considered taboo for many reasons. I'd suggest you look up what FDR had to say about it.

    However, there are still public unions. You are looking at a policy (incorrectly interpreted as usual) and then stating that all public employes of those states are not in unions. That's false. And the point you made about right to work states is beyond silly. It has no influence in the subject.
    Last edited by Comfort Food; 06-21-12 at 09:00 AM.

  7. #327
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    Re: Teacher of the year is laid off.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is correct. They are, in fact, bad for teaching.



    That is incorrect because the two are not comparable. With respect to the law our highest value is to protect the rights of the accused. We are willing to accept that some guilty go free in order to minimize the possibility that the innocent will be punished. In our public school system, however, our highest value is not the employment or the careers of teachers - it is the education of children. If we discovered tomorrow that our children could be better educated if we stuck them all in front of computers with automated teaching that followed their individual cognitive development, and that this could be accomplished for a moderate price, the correct solution would be to let the vast majority of our teachers go and replace them with the automated system. That would be horrible for teachers, to be sure. But it would be what is best for our students, and we have a public education system to benefit our students, not our teachers. The tendency to swap those two priorities is the main driver behind the damage wrecked by teachers unions - they seek first foremost and mostly what is best for teachers. That, after all, is their job.



    yes. Especially when the process you have put into place is so throttled with regulation and waiting and trouble and effort and cost that it is in effect a protective mechanism for horrible teachers who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near students. Claiming to be putting into place a system that keeps teachers who show good performance from getting fired unfairly, the unions have generally succeeded in putting into place a system that keeps teachers who show poor performance from getting fired period.



    I am telling you it does. That's the story behind this entire thread. Union rules force us to fire good teachers in order to keep senior teachers, regardless of their quality.



    The quality of people that we attract to and then retain within public education is indeed a problem. We need some of our best, and instead we are attracting our mediocre, and once they get into the system we aren't promoting our best, we are promoting our older.



    The priority is that students receive quality teachers. Ergo, the system should be designed to weight in favor of removing poor teachers, with the acknowledgement and acceptance that sometimes this means good teachers will fall through the cracks.







    I maintain you didn't read carefully enough, responded foolishly, are now trying to wriggle out of it.



    Somehow I knew that was the only part of that you would pull out. But no, as I have explained dozens of times to you, the system is not so simple as "standardized test scores".



    The last time we discussed this, as I recall, you proposed the ridiculous notion that student achievement had nothing to do with teacher quality. It was almost as bad as your earlier claim that the government of North Korea had no impact on its' economy as far as detachment-from-reality.
    How do you determine objectively which teachers are effective and which are not?
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  8. #328
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    Re: Teacher of the year is laid off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Well, 5 states ban it outright (NC, SC, GA, Texas, and VA). 22-23 states are right to work.
    That is false.

    NC Right to Work States: North Carolina | National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation
    SC South Carolina SC - Labor Unions and Labor Organizations

    I could go on. But there is no point.
    “Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.”
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    Re: Teacher of the year is laid off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    How do you determine objectively which teachers are effective and which are not?
    Same way everyone else determines that. Results.
    “Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.”
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    Re: Teacher of the year is laid off.

    Only five states do not allow collective bargaining for educators, effectively banning teachers unions. Those states and their SAT/ACT rankings are as follows:

    South Carolina – 50th

    North Carolina – 49th

    Georgia – 48th

    Texas – 47th

    Virginia – 44th


    Read more: The Five States Where Teachers Unions Are Illegal Have The Lowest Test Scores In America* - Business Insider

    We can argue the semantics if you want. Or you can pretend.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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