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Thread: Teacher of the year is laid off.

  1. #301
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    Re: Teacher of the year is laid off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Reminds of people I knew growing up up who said they couldn't be racist because they had friends who were black. This doesn't change what you do regularly here.
    What I do here is decry the destructive effects of public sector unions. You seem to lack the intellectual capacity or honesty to admit that that is not the same thing as "Denigrating teachers".

    Don't miss at all. It isn't unions who are lazy or incompetent.
    No. It is unions that protect and promote the lazy and incompetent.

    And the flip side of your complaint is that without unions, good competent teachers would have no protection.
    No more protection than any other knowledge worker. Me, for example. In fact, they would have significantly more protection than me - their boss can't throw them into jail, after all. Without unions, however, good competent teachers would be in high demand. Schools would be able to compete for good, competent teachers. The people who would have no protection are the ones who shouldn't have any.

    And yes, this happens. Personalities get in the way sometimes and good teachers lose jobs where there are not unions.
    I note you fail to cite the example I gave you where good teachers lost their jobs and poor ones kept them because there are unions.

    I can't find your voice there. You take a small, small percentage, misrepresent the problem, and in doing so demonize teachers. It is what you do on a regular basis.
    why do you hate our men and women in uniform?

    oh, sure, you will claim to have served yourself, to have many friends who are black veterans... but here you are, disagreeing with me, and furthermore claiming in other places that our efforts were not responsible for success in Iraq. Obviously the only reason you would do so is you seek to demonize those who put their lives on the line for others.


    do you see how stupid your claim sounds?

    Again they need to?
    Allow me to re-quote with some emphasis, please pay attention to the pronouns:

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    If you want teachers to get respect and pay, then we need to start ensuring that we get good teachers who will deserve it. The way to do that is through judging and rewarding by merit, so that our society's high-performers are attracted to the field. Good luck getting that past the unions.
    I thought you taught English, of all things?

    And what is merit?
    Effective teaching. Fitness reports. Competitive ranking. Objective and subjective scoring of objective and subjective measurables. Demonstration of effect on students. Demonstration of capabilities. If I can be graded and ranked against thousands of other Sgts' in the Marine Corps spread across all continents save Antartica doing widely disparate jobs under complex and widely disparate conditions, I have small sympathy for low-productive teachers telling me it's not fair to expect them to get graded. The good teachers want to be rewarded for their effort, talent, and results.

    If you want to measure their knowledge, their classroom performance, measurable things they control, few will argue with you.
    Well it's good to see you've converted.

  2. #302
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    Re: Teacher of the year is laid off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Perhaps. But I would like to see some numbers. I would assume if you say 75% you have something that says that.
    To avoid working in the yard this hot morning I've been trying to find the answer to the question, how many current public school teachers are in a union? I'm not having a great deal of luck, but here is what I've found. I'll include the links at the bottom.

    The number of public school teachers in 2008 - 3,219,458. I didn't find any later data that included only public school teachers. Another site said 3.6 million in 2010 but didn't specifically say pubic school teachers but it makes sense with the 2008 numbers.

    Using wikipedia, which I don't like to use but it's all I could find,the NEA has 3.2 million members and the AFT has 1.5 million. The problem is that these numbesr include teachers, paras, admin. and faculty and staff at universities. The AFT includes all of those people and health care professionals.

    Going back to what I found on the anti-union site. 10 states have less than 20% of teachers in unions, 4 fall in 20-45%, 2 in 46-65%, 4 in 66-75%, and the rest in 76-100%. I don't entirely trust these numbers because in Missouri in includes MSTA(Missouri State Teachers Association) as a union, but it is not one. However the site must not count MSTA membership when determining percentage of membership in a union because the number would have to be higher. I don't think I know anyone who isn't in MSTA or one of the unions. I think you'd be foolish to step into a classroom without one or the other behind you.


    Public elementary and secondary teachers, by level and state or jurisdiction: Selected years, fall 2000 through fall 2008
    Number of teachers in elementary and secondary schools, and instructional staff in postsecondary degree-granting institutions, by control of institution: Selected years, fall 1970 through fall 2019
    Unions | Teachers Union Facts
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    Re: Teacher of the year is laid off.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post

    Huh, look at that. Of the top five spenders, three of them are Public Sector Unions...
    Now look at the figures for this election, every year the public is represented less and the corporations are represented more. For those that would prefer a corporatocracy, I imagine this must be good news.
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    Re: Teacher of the year is laid off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Layla_Z View Post
    To avoid working in the yard this hot morning I've been trying to find the answer to the question, how many current public school teachers are in a union? I'm not having a great deal of luck, but here is what I've found. I'll include the links at the bottom.

    The number of public school teachers in 2008 - 3,219,458. I didn't find any later data that included only public school teachers. Another site said 3.6 million in 2010 but didn't specifically say pubic school teachers but it makes sense with the 2008 numbers.

    Using wikipedia, which I don't like to use but it's all I could find,the NEA has 3.2 million members and the AFT has 1.5 million. The problem is that these numbesr include teachers, paras, admin. and faculty and staff at universities. The AFT includes all of those people and health care professionals.

    Going back to what I found on the anti-union site. 10 states have less than 20% of teachers in unions, 4 fall in 20-45%, 2 in 46-65%, 4 in 66-75%, and the rest in 76-100%. I don't entirely trust these numbers because in Missouri in includes MSTA(Missouri State Teachers Association) as a union, but it is not one. However the site must not count MSTA membership when determining percentage of membership in a union because the number would have to be higher. I don't think I know anyone who isn't in MSTA or one of the unions. I think you'd be foolish to step into a classroom without one or the other behind you.


    Public elementary and secondary teachers, by level and state or jurisdiction: Selected years, fall 2000 through fall 2008
    Number of teachers in elementary and secondary schools, and instructional staff in postsecondary degree-granting institutions, by control of institution: Selected years, fall 1970 through fall 2019
    Unions | Teachers Union Facts
    I spent some time looking for the number and could not find anything that answered the question, which why I'm shocked people throw around numbers so casually.

    As for unions, I think there are pluses and minuses. I work without one.

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    Re: Teacher of the year is laid off.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    What I do here is decry the destructive effects of public sector unions. You seem to lack the intellectual capacity or honesty to admit that that is not the same thing as "Denigrating teachers".
    I knwo you think if you make enough breaks you'll confuse who you're speaking to, but you need to back and read. Unions don't teach.

    No. It is unions that protect and promote the lazy and incompetent.
    In the same sense that law that protect the innocent in our justice system sometimes helps the guilty, a poor teach can be protected in a limited baises. However, there is a process everywhere. So, your complaint really holds no water.


    No more protection than any other knowledge worker. Me, for example. In fact, they would have significantly more protection than me - their boss can't throw them into jail, after all. Without unions, however, good competent teachers would be in high demand. Schools would be able to compete for good, competent teachers. The people who would have no protection are the ones who shouldn't have any.
    MAny workers have no protection. On that you are right. People do get unfairly fired. I suppose you're suggesting this is better than have a process in place to make sure a firing is justified?


    I note you fail to cite the example I gave you where good teachers lost their jobs and poor ones kept them because there are unions.
    Are you seriously arguing it doesn't happen? That would be foolish on your part. We ahd a case here of what was by all measures an excellent teacher. However, he removed a local kid with important parents frm a football game and lost his job. That the kid was throwinf soda on spectators at the game didn't help him.

    However, this is the type of thing your side does. Fine an example, which really represents a small number, and tries to make it seem like a huge problem. All wee need to know here is that what can happen will. So where do you want the protection? Risk keeping a few bad apples to protect the good, or sacrifice some good to amke sure get the bad faster? Both numbers are likely small. And good and bad is likely not as clear as you think.


    why do you hate our men and women in uniform?
    oh, sure, you will claim to have served yourself, to have many friends who are black veterans... but here you are, disagreeing with me, and furthermore claiming in other places that our efforts were not responsible for success in Iraq. Obviously the only reason you would do so is you seek to demonize those who put their lives on the line for others.


    do you see how stupid your claim sounds?
    You're showing your lack of understanding of what is said again. Reread and try again.



    Allow me to re-quote with some emphasis, please pay attention to the pronouns:
    Doesn't change my response. I maintian you don't understand the issue.




    Effective teaching. Fitness reports. Competitive ranking. Objective and subjective scoring of objective and subjective measurables. Demonstration of effect on students. Demonstration of capabilities. If I can be graded and ranked against thousands of other Sgts' in the Marine Corps spread across all continents save Antartica doing widely disparate jobs under complex and widely disparate conditions, I have small sympathy for low-productive teachers telling me it's not fair to expect them to get graded. The good teachers want to be rewarded for their effort, talent, and results.
    Effect on students? If youy're using standardized test scores for that, you are getting misinformation plain and simple.

    Well it's good to see you've converted.
    Sounds like yet one more misunderstanding on your part.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Teacher of the year is laid off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Perhaps. But I would like to see some numbers. I would assume if you say 75% you have something that says that.
    I don't need Google to look up things I know. If you had any concept of the field you claim to belong in you would know the number is nowhere near one-third. The very notion that you saw that number and was unable to A) comprehend the statistic that was laid out in plain English and B) failed to recognize that the number wasn't anywhere close to the reality means you have zero credibility on this subject. The ignorance of the post was beyond belief.

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    Re: Teacher of the year is laid off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Comfort Food View Post
    I don't need Google to look up things I know. If you had any concept of the field you claim to belong in you would know the number is nowhere near one-third. The very notion that you saw that number and was unable to A) comprehend the statistic that was laid out in plain English and B) failed to recognize that the number wasn't anywhere close to the reality means you have zero credibility on this subject. The ignorance of the post was beyond belief.
    Your numbers are correct because you say so, no backup or research needed, and anyone who doesn't believe it is just ignorant.

    Ignorant beyond belief, to be exact.

    Understood.
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    Re: Teacher of the year is laid off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Layla_Z View Post
    To avoid working in the yard this hot morning I've been trying to find the answer to the question, how many current public school teachers are in a union? I'm not having a great deal of luck, but here is what I've found. I'll include the links at the bottom.
    Here is one statistic..
    http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj30n1/cj30n1-8.pdf

    Flip to page 160. You can see that in 2009 the total % of all public school workforce was roughly 70%. The figures go up and down every year, obviously. Last I heard through word of mouth it was in the 70-75% range But again, this is total public school workforce. Teachers are the most likely profession in public education to be in a union. This is why I said roughly 75%. I do not know specifically for teachers only because I believe school districts only report total employees. I am not sure if they actually break it down. Regardless the number is at least 75%. I think looking at this graph would both agree this is not a far-reaching number and if anything it downplays it.

    The problem with quoting that site that is anti-union is that I don't know where they get their numbers from (didn't check), but I doubt it is professionally done. I would trust the numbers I hear over a random hate site on the internet. Even if they are trying to exaggerate statistics I don't think they're intelligent enough to even do that properly. You also have to factor in that the states with low union percentages have low populations and overall teacher employment. Unions tend to thrive in states with high population densities.

    The statistics from CATO comes from National Center for Education Statistics
    http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2009/2009020_0.pdf

    This doesn't seem to be the full article. I am looking for the original source of their statistic. But I don't really care enough to dig it up to be honest. If I don't find it soon I'm not going to keep looking.
    Last edited by Comfort Food; 06-20-12 at 05:54 PM.

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    Re: Teacher of the year is laid off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Your numbers are correct because you say so, no backup or research needed, and anyone who doesn't believe it is just ignorant.

    Ignorant beyond belief, to be exact.

    Understood.
    If you are in the field, as he claims, you would know that one-third of public school teachers being in a union is a joke. Even if you're not in a union you read education articles and information that discusses these things. I gave an estimate, hence the term "roughly." And it is accurate. You are free to disprove it if you desire, just don't be an idiot and quote public/private employees and include a million other fields in your statistic.

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    Re: Teacher of the year is laid off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Comfort Food View Post
    If you are in the field, as he claims, you would know that one-third of public school teachers being in a union is a joke. Even if you're not in a union you read education articles and information that discusses these things. I gave an estimate, hence the term "roughly." And it is accurate. You are free to disprove it if you desire, just don't be an idiot and quote public/private employees and include a million other fields in your statistic.
    Oh, I have no need to disprove it. You say it's so, and you're the authority, so more than a third it is.

    Not that it makes a scintilla of difference, of course.
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