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Thread: AP sources: Immunity offered to certain immigrants

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    What do you think will happen when farmers are forced to actually pay min wage for workers? Do you think the farmers will just eat the additional cost or what? Of course food prices will go up.
    And how does this justify continuing to do the wrong thing?

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    Re: AP sources: Immunity offered to certain immigrants

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Funny how you posted the piece, but didn't read it. From the same article:



    Deferred action is not a grant of reprieve or pardon (powers Obama has exercise in the past as the article notes).
    Reprieve yes, pardon no...
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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    Re: AP sources: Immunity offered to certain immigrants

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Although Obama's methods are a sleazy way to keep illegal immigrants here legally with the workers card, I don't think he is advocating that they be made citizens that can vote.

    What he may be trying to do though is rally the legal Hispanic voters to support him.
    Maybe he should have considered that most Mexican Americans whom are here legally are mostly
    Catholic, and living in a border state and having many Mexican American amigos I can state almost
    all whom are here legally detest the illegals. Many whom are here legally do fairly well in the work
    place but they understand the jobs their kids may need, entry level low paying jobs will now be
    diluted. IMHO, this move was clearly purely political as no effort to solve border security was offered.
    I don't know exactly what this amnesty covers but, how is this going to play out in terms of taxes?
    Will all of these new legal aliens get a pass on years of social security payments they should have
    been making? Are we adding hundreds of thousands or a million new people who will end up getting
    back more taxes than they pay in producing further strain on our economic situation? It doesn't
    seem like the ramifications of this were thought out very well. Right now the US needs some fiscal
    leadership, not someone pandering social issues which will add to the burden we're already coming
    up short on not too far down the road here. This was a slap to the face of all Americans.

  4. #234
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    Re: AP sources: Immunity offered to certain immigrants

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    How about partnering with State and local LE for enforcement of immigration laws. How about streamlining deportation to minimize court costs? How about instead of just letting illegal aliens stay, do something to reduce/stop the influx of illegal entery into the US.

    You are correct that with a finite resources and funding choices have to be made. That happens all the time. Still does not make it right for those who break our immigration laws. Our system does need to be overhauled. We need a better migrant labor guest program. We need a swifter/more economical method to deport illegal aliens. Our legal system for handling many violations of law is way to costly.
    I mostly agree with you. We need a better guest worker program and we need to make the whole process more efficient and we need to ramp up enforcement once we have a good guest worker program in place.

    But, two thoughts. First off, ICE does work heavily with state and local law enforcement. The program that Arpaio was in, for example, empowers state and local law enforcement to enforce federal immigration law. Virtually all states and cities with significant numbers of undocumented immigrants are part of that program. The ONLY person who has ever been kicked out is Arpaio. So, where you happen to live I'm sure it seems like they don't work with state and local cops, but that's just because your local sheriff is a total nutjob that flagrantly violated the constitution over and over and had to be stripped of his powers. Elect somebody sane and they'll be right back in the program no problem.

    Second, I don't disagree that we need to streamline deportation. But, a big word of caution on that. What we really need to do most of all is to establish more immigration courts and get more judges confirmed as fast as possible. That's the biggest part of the cost. The immigration courts are so backlogged that people have to wait up to a year for their first appearance. Often they are sitting in jail that whole time. That is extremely costly and it is horrifically, insanely, unfair for those folks who turn out to be here legally to lose a year of their lives just because of backlog in the courts. The Republicans filibustering of every judge that comes along needs to stop. Immediately. It is costing us hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars a year just on the immigration front alone.

    But, when some people talk about streamlining the process what they mean is lowering the burden of proof for people accused of being here illegally. Whenever there is any crime that society is particuarly upset about, there starts to be pressure not just to increase the penalties, but to make it easier for the government to prove that they did the crime. IMO that is always a huge mistake. For example, we have done that with sex offenders and now in some trials against sex offenders some extremely shady evidence that would never be allowed in a normal trial has to be allowed. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt has to be the standard for every crime and the standard rules of evidence needs to remain in place for every crime IMO.

    People kind of assume that in an immigration trial basically you just ask the guy for his ID or green card or whatever and if he doesn't have it, that's that. But I did some volunteer work once for a service that represents undocumented immigrants and I can tell you it is usually WAY more complicated than that. Somebody was here on a work visa and they submitted their application to extend it properly and on time, but ICE lost it, and then they followed up immediately, but before ICE fixed it, they land in immigration court after a speeding ticket. Or a woman met an American man in another country, came here on a visa, married him, and he told her that now she was a citizen and she didn't know enough about our laws to realize it wasn't true. In actuality just getting married doesn't do it (altough you would think it did from popular culture). You actually have to file a form with immigration as well and if the citizen didn't do that, she's not actually a citizen. Maybe the guy didn't realize that either and he's willing to sign the form immediately. Should she be deported and blacklisted so she can't get citizenship in the future just because of that? What if she's been here for 10 years and has 3 kids here? Or, and this sadly is very common, a non-citizen marries a citizen and he refuses to file the form to make her a citizen. Instead, after they have a kid, he holds it over her head that if she disobeys him, he will turn her in to ICE and she will be deported and he will get the kids. So then he starts beating her. The Violence Against Women Act has provisions to protect victims of domestic violence in that situation, but proving it is a full fledged trial and it is pretty tough because the victims usually have battered women's syndrome and on the flip side they have a good reason to make it up. So it requires a whole lot of investigation. And so on. Those are just a few examples, but there are many more. People who claim that their estranged father was a US citizen are very tough to resolve.

    Anyways, my point is that the way to make it cheaper is to spend more up front on courts so that the detention costs drop, not to just start turning it into a rubber stamp injustice machine where people are basically getting deported whenever the whim hits the government to do so.
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  5. #235
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    Re: AP sources: Immunity offered to certain immigrants

    tea:
    some good points. Yet there are hundreds that come across the AZ border daily. When caught by BP and they have no proof of being a US citizen or in the US legally, they should be exported back across the border.

    We also need to find a way to slow the influx of illegal crossers. If we slow the influx, we reduce the burden on the courts.

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    Re: AP sources: Immunity offered to certain immigrants

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    What do you think will happen when farmers are forced to actually pay min wage for workers? Do you think the farmers will just eat the additional cost or what? Of course food prices will go up.
    No the federal government will be forced to subsidize the farmers and then give someone else something to complain about.
    Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?
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    and then exacting from the contributors--to whom a little means so much--a double share to guard the treasure!
    - Robert M. LaFollette, Wisconsin Governor and U.S. Senator

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    Re: AP sources: Immunity offered to certain immigrants

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    And how does this justify continuing to do the wrong thing?
    I never said it did. Just pointing out that prices will indeed increase and the labor cost isn't just a small fraction of the costs for farmers.

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    Re: AP sources: Immunity offered to certain immigrants

    Quote Originally Posted by OnWisconsin View Post
    No the federal government will be forced to subsidize the farmers and then give someone else something to complain about.

    That indeed may be a possibility and if the government really wants people to get on board with this and stop hiring illegals that may be a way.

    The real problem is there is a market for illegals to come here and work and as long as that market is there, it's going to be hard to get people to comply. The only way to get people to comply is to fine them heavily, however, Republicans and Democrats have been unwilling to do this for the most part. Companies need to be heavily held responsible for hiring illegals.

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    Re: AP sources: Immunity offered to certain immigrants

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Erm ... What? I was talking about border patrol. You know, those folks who are tasked with preventing illegals from entering the country?
    So what? If you are saying the illegals have free access to going south, you'll need to prove that.
    "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

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    Re: AP sources: Immunity offered to certain immigrants

    Pretty sure that Big Agriculture is in favor of letting illegal immigrants stay as long as they can.
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton
    "Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections." --Mitt Romney

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