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North Dakota voters to decide on abolishing property tax

drz-400 said:
Anyone who has actually been to the oil boomtowns in ND would realize that the local governments are way behind trying to create the infrastructure, emergency services, schools, housing, etc to support the boom. I have heard estimates that the boom could be twice as big in areas like Williston and Watford City if the infrastructure would be there to support it. This would just drain already struggling communities trying to cope with the huge population influx, truck traffic, spikes in crime, etc.
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Indeed, and it's nice to see another fellow Nodak around here. Hell you don't even have to be really near it to see the changes.

Interstate travel is much busier, the surrounding communities have a housing/apartment shortage (in Bismarck it is hard to find an apartment, although rates have not risen), the boom towns have an almost impossible situation for those who are not home owners, where you can't afford rent or find an apartment because of the out-of-staters working the oil fields that came in making much larger salaries. It's almost as if to say that if you aren't a part of that boom industry, you can piss off. Local universities and colleges have an influx of new settlers who take a couple of courses in order to satisfy student housing requirements, yet fall asleep in class and purposefully say to Professors that they don't give a damn about the class. A guy I know closed his own liquor establishment and moved to another town because neighboring stores were being bought out like mad, creating a situation that he said was a "rat race." Essentially, you have a boom that has uprooted the North Dakota way of life and has pulled the rug out of folks that have been in the area for decades, causing them to relocate.

The weird thing about the crime stuff is that North Dakotans can be somewhat prejudiced against the new settlers, because there's so many of them. Indeed, the interstates and highways are littered with piss-filled soda bottles and other garbage, and with more folks comes more crime, especially in desperate times for housing. Yet, there was a case where people assumed it was outsiders that were the cause of a murder (murders are not especially common in this state), but we discovered they were a couple of local guys instead.

So while free-market conservatives can look at North Dakota with pride, social conservatives and traditionalists have cause for concern.
 
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Fiddytree said:
Indeed, and it's nice to see another fellow Nodak around here. Hell you don't even have to be really near it to see the changes.

Interstate travel is much busier, the surrounding communities have a housing/apartment shortage (in Bismarck it is hard to find an apartment, although rates have not risen), the boom towns have an almost impossible situation for those who are not home owners, where you can't afford rent or find an apartment because of the out-of-staters working the oil fields that came in making much larger salaries. It's almost as if to say that if you aren't a part of that boom industry, you can piss off. Local universities and colleges have an influx of new settlers who take a couple of courses in order to satisfy student housing requirements, yet fall asleep in class and purposefully say to Professors that they don't give a damn about the class. A guy I know closed his own liquor establishment and moved to another town because neighboring stores were being bought out like mad, creating a situation that he said was a "rat race." Essentially, you have a boom that has uprooted the North Dakota way of life and has pulled the rug out of folks that have been in the area for decades, causing them to relocate.

The weird thing about the crime stuff is that North Dakotans can be somewhat prejudiced against the new settlers, because there's so many of them. Indeed, the interstates and highways are littered with piss-filled soda bottles and other garbage, and with more folks comes more crime, especially in desperate times for housing. Yet, there was a case where people assumed it was outsiders that were the cause of a murder (murders are not especially common in this state), but we discovered they were a couple of local guys instead.

So while free-market conservatives can look at North Dakota with pride, social conservatives and traditionalists have cause for concern.
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Haha, ya you will probably hate me then. I am one of those "out of staters" who just got a job up there in the oil industry around Williston. It is a great opportunity that I could not pass up, great pay, benefits, and of course you gain more experience there than anywhere in the country because of the shear volume of work to be done.

However, I can completely understand why the locals are upset, or at least feeling the boom is a little bittersweet. On the one hand the boom has brought tons of money, new jobs, and new opportunities to the region; but it has also come about so fast that it has really turned western ND upside down. I will be flat honest, the truck traffic through Williston is ridiculous. If you come from an oilfield town you might understand what it could be like, but even then it is more than I have ever seen. And it is really dangerous driving around since the roads are not built for the amount of traffic in the area.

And of course with the oil patch comes all of the "trash" that comes along with it. It is really a "dirty" boom, and the housing crisis has really exacerbated it. If you dont get hired by one of the bigger outfits in the area (baker, halliburton, schlumberger, etc) that will provide lodging, it is really hard for those hired by the oil companies to find a place to live. Its a saftey hazard, eyesore, and bad PR all the way around. With time and lots of investment it will get better, as everything else will have a chance to get caught up with the oil industry, but for now there are serious "growing pains" in western ND.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
I pay my prop tax to the state, that's who the check is written out to. In a state like ND that has more money coming in than it knows what to do with I would be for aboloshing prop taxes but apparently I am in the minority, as usual. LOL

I have always resented how the state owns my property, if I don't pay tax on it they sieze it. Complete BS if you ask me. If a man can't own his land then he owns nothing. Freedom is an illusion.
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What state are you talking about now? I have seen you post as being in WA, profile indicates Idaho and now you are implying ND. Are you driving a truck or what? ;-)
 
Fiddytree said:
We don't have more money than we know what to do with. We have a massive infrastructure problem as a result of the floods and the boom. A Few years ago, I and A majority of the state voted on a measure to have a rainy day fund that would be very difficult to tap into. We have many groups that proclaim they need more funds, flood relief, road construction, a huge housing problem, and anything else you could possibly imagine that would proceed a massive economic and population shift in a state that 10 years ago was concerned its young would leave the state for better opportunities in nearly every field. Consider the fact that we have moved past our peak population of 680k that was set before the aftermath of the Great depression and decreasing farm land.Thereafter we had steadily lost population. North Dakota is changing rapidly and we are trying to keep up, and we aren't doing so hot on that front.

The property tax removal campaign was an older movement preceding the boom. This time around it just used the boom for justification. It would solve very little and would have created more havoc than it was worth and would end up harming more than making better, as the revenues would have to come through other directions that are neither gurqnteed to remain constant and could do more damage to our wallets than otherwise. Minnesota was bragging about the possibility of benefitting from North Dakota's possible move away from property taxes.
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ND is pulling in tons of tax money, where is it going? Interesting to hear from a ND resident on prop tax thing, thanks.
 
Hikertrash said:
Like every state has oil and other natural resources. Think I'll mine for gold in my back yard.
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I said this could be going on in states all over the country, not every state in the country. Calif and Florida come to mind, both have huge off shore oil deposits they refuse to extract.
 
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Fiddytree said:
http://www.nd.gov/fiscal/docs/budget/appropbook2011-13.pdf (In brief, look at the executive summary).

Dalrymple issues budget guidelines | The N.D. Capitol and Beyond
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Good links Fiddy. The effect of boom times is always multifaceted. The boom gives but there are some take aways as well.

Infrastructure to support growth, is a very important consideration and then with all the complexities of state budgets and income sources, well, the oil money is not pure state profit.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
I said this could be going on in states all over the country, not every state in the country. Calif and Florida come to mind, both have huge off shore oil deposits they refuse to extract.
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How many jobs would become available and how many people do you think are willing to leave their homes and family to work and live on a off shore oil rig? Certainly not enough to lower the unemployment ranks significantly.

Yours is a pipe dream. :lamo
 
Hikertrash said:
How many jobs would become available and how many people do you think are willing to leave their homes and family to work and live on a off shore oil rig? Certainly not enough to lower the unemployment ranks significantly.

Yours is a pipe dream. :lamo
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You'd get a lot of young bucks and desperate fathers or mothers trying to make ends meet by going to those jobs.
 
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Hikertrash said:
How many jobs would become available and how many people do you think are willing to leave their homes and family to work and live on a off shore oil rig? Certainly not enough to lower the unemployment ranks significantly.

Yours is a pipe dream. :lamo
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That's why those jobs pay so well.
 
Rosie1 said:
Okay, no emergency responders of any type for that state. No public services of any type. Clever people...not! Thank goodness my state is a "progressive" state!
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What public services are you talking about?
 
Gina said:
Good links Fiddy. The effect of boom times is always multifaceted. The boom gives but there are some take aways as well.

Infrastructure to support growth, is a very important consideration and then with all the complexities of state budgets and income sources, well, the oil money is not pure state profit.
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One thing to remember, the infrastructure work creats jobs so the oil jobs create satellite jobs. This is how the boom spreads out to all industry.
 
Hikertrash said:
How many jobs would become available and how many people do you think are willing to leave their homes and family to work and live on a off shore oil rig? Certainly not enough to lower the unemployment ranks significantly.

Yours is a pipe dream. :lamo
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Speaking of pipes, PUT YOURS DOWN! :lol:
 
sawyerloggingon said:
This kind of prosperity could be going on across America if Obama wasn’t so anti fossil fuel and blue states that use so much fossil fuel wouldn’t refuse to drill in their own back yards. We could be in a boom instead of a bust, nice work left wingers


North Dakota voters will decide Tuesday on the ultimate tax revolt: abolishing the property tax altogether. A citizen-led petition drive has put the daring, all-or-nothing proposal before the voters in a state flush with tax revenue, jobs and prosperity generated by an oil boom.

North Dakota voters to decide on abolishing property tax
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JMO, but when taxpayers are offered the opportunity to get rid of a tax, they do. There are probably better taxes to cut, but this tells a story.
 
Hikertrash said:
How many jobs would become available and how many people do you think are willing to leave their homes and family to work and live on a off shore oil rig? Certainly not enough to lower the unemployment ranks significantly.

Yours is a pipe dream. :lamo
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The pipe dream is to think that most people have any motivation to make their life and their childrens life better, instead of the bare minimum to survive. Which is why people wont do those jobs.

I work in a different industry, but I travel similarly. 3-4 weeks out working, 10 days to 2 weeks home. We pay way better than the OEM, but we travel. Plenty of lay-offs to provide available people, but none want to work. They would rather be unemployed than travel.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
One thing to remember, the infrastructure work creats jobs so the oil jobs create satellite jobs. This is how the boom spreads out to all industry.
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But it's not all roses and champagne for the people already living in the state, as Fiddy has pointed out. Housing shortages, congested roads, people who can't afford new housing because it's priced for those with the new higher paying wages, or existing housing because of the increased demand. It takes time for the infrastructure to catch up and for those who already have jobs, their wages will have to rise, or they move because they cannot afford housing in those areas most greatly effected by the boom. Not everyone in a boom town, or state, has a positive view of it, for reasons like these.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have economic growth, but it's not all good news and there are unforeseen consequences.
Dalrymple said there’s a public misconception that North Dakota’s oil tax revenues can solve any budget challenges. The general fund budget can only collect up to $300 million in oil tax revenue, which is less than 10 percent of general fund expenditures, he said.
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And...

North Dakota’s booming economy also means the state will be required to pick up a greater share of the costs of Medicaid. To sustain the current program, the state will need to make up $91 million in lost federal funds in the new biennium, Dalrymple said.
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And as you posted above to Fiddy:
Sounds like the flood damage and growing pains sops the money up.
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It does sop up much of it,certainly to begin with, so the oil money is not the end all, be all to economic problems. Again, I'm not down on economic growth or developing industries, but to say it's all good, is a mistake.
 
Hello D P forums!

Well its to bad the voters of ND will continue to RENT all property in thier state.

if the bank cant get all your 30 years of payments, then the local tax collector will.

(PS
I own my home. And it cant be taken away........its an RV.
 
274ina said:
Hello D P forums!

Well its to bad the voters of ND will continue to RENT all property in thier state.

if the bank cant get all your 30 years of payments, then the local tax collector will.

(PS
I own my home. And it cant be taken away........its an RV.
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Dear 247ina,

We thank you for your concern. We are quite fine with the current scenario in which we have a dependable source of revenues for our various programs and services. We are more than ok with the conservative philosophy that local government needs to be upheld against the State government control when possible. We also believe it in the best interest of our citizens to not be hit hard with sales taxes and other taxes which will harm more hard working North Dakotans than currently. The measure in question provided an interesting question but did not solve the burning questions about how to make the situation better rather than worse.

We encourage you to continue your quest in property tax removal and maybe some day your state will have even the same amount of consideration for the measure that we had. However, seeing that as unlikely, do not call us serfs.

Sincerely,

North Dakota
 
PeteEU said:
Horse****. Alaska has oil. Alaska also has the largest debt/unfunded liabilities (pensions and such) vs GDP of all states and Alaska receives the most federal money per capita of all states. Alaska is the Greece of the US, not having enough income locally and depending on money transfers from the other 49 states. That is not prosperity, but living a lie in a dream world, much like the Greeks.
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I'm sure you get the "United" part of United States? We look out for each other. I would think anyone with a liberal lean would have jumped you like a mugger for saying Alaska is free loading on the other states, but I guess not.
 
Rosie1 said:
Okay, no emergency responders of any type for that state. No public services of any type. Clever people...not! Thank goodness my state is a "progressive" state!
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So why is your state broke, and North Dakota has hundreds of billions in surplus revenue?
 
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