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Thread: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Watching people deny that teachers have any impact on student performance is mind boggling.
    Please show us the post where people are denying that teachers don't have ANY impact on student performance. The argument is that teachers aren't the only influences to a students performance.

    The way some cons want to do things is strictly by test scores. What happens when a lousy teacher has a classroom where the students are supported by their parents and the students want to learn versus a good teacher that has a classroom full of students who don't want to learn and parents that don't care and/or don't provide a good environment to study?

    Good test results doesn't mean the teacher is necessarily teaching good and lousy test scores don't mean the teacher isn't doing their job the best the students and parents will allow.

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    So the city wants to increase the amount of time the teachers work while implementing an effective pay freeze/cut (2% raise in nominal wages vs. 2%+ inflation). So in real terms workers wages will go down as their hours increase, and the teachers are the ones being greedy?
    "Greedy" is irrelevant, we can assume everyone is out for their own financial interests. The question is where they are relative to market value. If they are overvalued, they are simply being pushed towards market value.

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    The argument being made is that teacher performance is not the sole influence on student performance.
    Nobody has made that arguments outside of your imagination.

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Nobody has made that arguments outside of your imagination.
    Actually when others want th teachers salaries based solely on test scores and graduation, yes, they are making that argument.

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    I'm having a hard time with it because Don was incorrect with his numbers, the math looks a lot different when you factor in the actual school day which is 5 hour and 45 minutes.
    I made clear in my example that I was using the 7 hour figure, which was proposed to be increased to 7 hours 40 minutes, to illustrate the concept of an effective wage cut. A starting point of less than 7 hours would increase the size of the effective wage cut.

    It is not clear whether the average 5 hours 45 minutes refers strictly to in-class school time while ignoring additional work time for teachers i.e., conferences, grading papers, administrative responsibilities, etc.

    That said, I would still tie pay to performance and NOT all teachers are alike and thus not all deserving of one show fits all pay scale.
    I agree that not all teachers are alike. Moreover, certain fields have shortages for teachers e.g., currently in math and science, and I favor flexiblity for schools to offer higher wages, bonuses, or some other incentives to remedy those shortages.

    In principle, I also favor some kind of performance component, but that's a challenging proposition. To design an effective performance component, one needs to establish broad agreement on what constitutes performance worthy of extra compensation, whether a degree of consistency should be incorporated (in other words the qualifying results should be repeated for multiple years to determine that they truly represent effective teaching and are not the temporary outcome of some exogneous factors), what variables are actually controllable, among others.

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Good test results doesn't mean the teacher is necessarily teaching good and lousy test scores don't mean the teacher isn't doing their job the best the students and parents will allow.
    What idiot would measure a trainers performance soley on the students performance? That sounds like union propoganda.

    Teachers and administrators (hopefully mostly experienced teachers filling those administration roles) should decide how to measure teacher performance.
    Measure teacher performance is the only key I see being pushed here. And, having both rewards and penalties including firing, based on management evaluation. (Just like nearly every other industry including much of private education).

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    What idiot would measure a trainers performance soley on the students performance? That sounds like union propoganda.
    All I can say is I posted this question to Hiccup (a conservative):

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    But does basing their salary on how well or poor their students do on a test an accurate reflection of the teachers ability?
    to which the reply to it was:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Why not? Do you have a better idea?

    So, you judge for yourself.

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    What idiot would measure a trainers performance soley on the students performance? That sounds like union propoganda.

    Teachers and administrators (hopefully mostly experienced teachers filling those administration roles) should decide how to measure teacher performance.
    Measure teacher performance is the only key I see being pushed here. And, having both rewards and penalties including firing, based on management evaluation. (Just like nearly every other industry including much of private education).
    I agree with you. However, several people have argued that teacher performance should be directly measured by student performance and that's what people are responding to. Nobody is denying that teachers have impact on student performance. You made that up.

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Watching people deny that teachers have any impact on student performance is mind boggling.
    He's not making that argument. Teachers have an impact, but the impact is far from total.

    If one runs through the economic and educational literature (I'm far more familiar with the former), one finds that the socioeconomic status of a student's family is positively correlated with factors such as graduation and test scores. Such students often have broader exposure to literature, culture, better nutrition, parental attention, etc., hence they have more learning opportunities. The extent of reading is positively correlated with crucial academic skills such as problem-solving and critical reasoning. Hence, those who have had greater exposure to literature have stronger skills throughout their educational careers.

    If there is a single teacher who teaches two classes, one with students from a higher socioeconomic background and the other from a lower socioeconomic background, that teacher will experience disparate outcomes in those classes. One needs to isolate all exogenous variables and compensate for them in judging performance. That's not an easy task and it is the reason one cannot rely on "one-size-fits-all" approaches for measuring outcomes between schools. One can gain some insights from various measures, but until one drills down into the details, that insight is far from sufficient.

    Moreover, the results in remediation near or in higher education have proved disappointing to say the least, meaning that the comparative advantages that are established early on typically persist. The gaps are not easily closed. Answers as to when the marginal benefit of intervention might be highest remain unclear.
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 06-12-12 at 03:44 PM.

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    Re: 90 Percent of Chicago Teachers Authorize Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    In principle, I also favor some kind of performance component, but that's a challenging proposition. To design an effective performance component, one needs to establish broad agreement on what constitutes performance worthy of extra compensation,
    How does the rest of the market overcome this challenge? It's routine in every other industry, why not here?

    I believe this notion of needing broad agreement is exactly wrong. Private industry innovates and succeeds because it doesn't need broad agreement. It can actually get things done, correctly, because of the lack of bureacracy, and the need to "get broad political agreement". Once it gets too big, there are too many varied interests at stake and it cannot be about teaching, it's then about politics, power, pensions, etc. That goes for any organization.

    What's worse, is all this evaluation is irrelevant if teachers cannot easily be fired, and if success doesn't result in higher pay/rewards. What even have measurement if at the end of the day you wont' be firing the really poor teachers? Or if you do a good job, yet your buddy down the hall is a slacker and you both get the same pay....how demotivating is that? Evaluation is part of a decision making process that creates rules, measures to the rules, and makes decisions based on that feedback. Decisions, like hiring, firing, rewarding, punishing. If there are no consequences post evaluation, the evaulation is almost irrelevant. Why even bother?

    I do agree that it's unfair to make teachers just as vulnerable as private employees, while also not giving them the more freedom from bureaucracy that private markets enjoy. That's why both must occur.

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